Do I have to upgrade to AFCI's?

[resistance]

I've had my debate on the definition of the word "outlet", and it's usage. The debate was never ending. I'm with you on your definition Al. Yet, lets keep this secret! LOL!

 

[cpal]

********

I do not believe extending a branch circuit (installed before the AFCI requirment--in some juridictions) falls under the AFCI requirements. Yet, the rules will apply if a new bedroom circuit is installed. Just something to think about:Extending a branch circuit that was installed as multi-circuit. (before the AFCI).

I believe atleast one mfg makes a afci for a multi wire BC

Charlie

 

[resistance]

AFCI for multi! Learned something new. That's great, if it holds true! Heck Multi circuits saved us time when we had to RI houses.

Thanks Charlie! I'll talk to my distributor, to see if they know anything.

 

[cpal]

This page will get you to a pdf catalog



http://www.eatonelectrical.com/NASA...&c=Apubarticles&cid=983558192127&Sec=products


I think page 118 has this info


Ground Fault Application Notes
Single-pole Type CHGFIs are designed
for use in 2-wire, 120 Vac circuits.
Figure 3-5 shows a typical wiring
configuration.
Two-pole Type CHGFIs are designed
for use in 3-wire, 120/240 Vac circuits,
120 Vac multiwire circuits employing
common, neutral and 2-wire, 240 Vac
circuits obtained from a 120/240 Vac
source.
Figure 3-6 and Figure 3-7 illustrate





Charlie

 

[danam96]

Thanks to everyone, much appreciated!

Thanks to everyone, much appreciated!

Thanks to everyone, much appreciated!

 

[resistance]

Thanks Charlie!

 

[McDowellb]

Remember that an outlet for a switch does not require AFCI protection.

 

[cpal]

Remember that an outlet for a switch does not require AFCI protection.

Yes, but if the switch controls a lighting outlet or switched receptacle in a bed room it will need to be AFCI. Yes / No????


Charlie

 

[resistance]

I guess this is an attemp to start an outlet debate?!

 

[McDowellb]

Yes, but if the switch controls a lighting outlet or switched receptacle in a bed room it will need to be AFCI. Yes / No????


Charlie

Yes the outlet would have to be protected. But if there is a switch in the bedroom that is on a different circuit that controls a light outside, then AFCI protection is not required.

 

[cpal]

Yes I agree!!

What do you think of the proposed language for 08?

(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits installed in dwelling units shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination
type installed to provide protection of the branch
circuit. [ROP 2?105, 2?142, 2?111]
FPN No. 1: For information on types of

Charlie

 

[roger]

Attack of the killer "B'S" is back. Hello roger!

And a big hello back Sacramento chief inspector.

Roger

 

[LarryFine]

This might be a good time to raise the question as to weither an extension of an of an existing bed room branch circuit will require the installation of an afci

I say no.

I do not believe extending a branch circuit (installed before the AFCI requirment--in some juridictions) falls under the AFCI requirements. Yet, the rules will apply if a new bedroom circuit is installed.

I agree.

It's the installation of the OUTLET that makes a circuit AFCI. . .

I disagree.

Yet, to add a receptacle should not require a person to make the "circuit" AFCI protected.

I agree.

Here's my reasoning:[quote='02 NEC]210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.[/quote]
As I see it, this section addresses the installation of branch circuits, not receptacle outlets. After all, this is Art. 210, not Art. 406. If we're installing a branch circuit, 210.12 applies.

If I come from an existing receptacle outlet in a bedroom to supply another receptacle outlet in a bedroom, I have not added any circuits, so Art. 210 does not apply to this work.

 

[cpal]

I guess my train of thought is probably more local and to some degree paradoxel (if thats a word). There is a rule in MA

Rule 3. Additions or modifications to an existing installation shall be made in accordance with this Code without bringing the remaining part of the installation into compliance with the requirements of this Code. The installation shall not create a violation of this Code, nor shall it increase the magnitude of an existing violation.

I only include the text for discussion

Before I get heat I understand that the NEC is not retro in it's application, but I am curious. How many other jurisdictations have requirements that would impact a circuit extension such as we have been discussing??

I do not have a dog in this fight unless it's a local installation.

Charlie

 

[al hildenbrand]

As I see it, this section addresses the installation of branch circuits, not receptacle outlets.

So your take of:
'05 NEC
210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection
(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

would be:
All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits installed in dwelling unit bedrooms
?

Because:

After all, this is Art. 210, not Art. 406. If we're installing a branch circuit, 210.12 applies.

.
.
.
If 210 is only about branch circuits, what is all that language in 210 on "Required Outlets"?

 

[al hildenbrand]

but I am curious. How many other jurisdictions have requirements that would impact a circuit extension such as we have been discussing?

Charlie,

The State of Minnesota Electrical Licensing and Inspections, under the former name of the Board of Electricity, published in its Fall 2001 newsletter that

. . .The board of electricity will not require AFCI protection on existing branch circuits unless they are extended into or within a bedroom after January 1, 2002. An example of this situation is when the electrical service is changed and no branch circuits are extended into or within existing bedroom(s).

 

[al hildenbrand]

not receptacle outlets.

And we're talking about "outlets" not receptacles. . .

 

[cpal]

Charlie,

The State of Minnesota Electrical Licensing and Inspections, under the former name of the Board of Electricity, published in its Fall 2001 newsletter that

Thanks Al,
Mass does not require AFCI on panel board changes (05) at all.There were problems with K&T Etc.

It does appear that if a circuit is extended into the bedroom area you require AF is that correct??

Charlie

 

[al hildenbrand]

It does appear that if a circuit is extended into the bedroom area you require AF is that correct?

Yes. If the "outlet" is new and inside the bedroom, and the supply is an extension of an existing circuit, then that existing circuit must have AFCI when I'm done or my AHJ will tell me to go back and add the AFCI.

 

[LarryFine]

If 210 is only about branch circuits, what is all that language in 210 on "Required Outlets"?

And we're talking about "outlets" not receptacles. . .

Hey, someone has to take the other side, or we won't have a chance of hitting 10 pages. Plus, if I agree with you, I'll have to install an AFCI when I add an outlet.

Think about it, though. There are six recessed lights in a bedroom. They want one more added, and we have to change the breaker. Seems silly to me. (Gee, that's new.)

What if we replace a fixture? No new outlet, right? What if we remove a fixture and install a fan. Needs a new box. Still not a new outlet, right? Same hole is why?

What if we relocate a hole? Say a customer moves the dining room table and wants the chandelier recentered over the table. New box? New hole? New outlet? AFCI?

Suppose we relocate a receptacle? If we mount a plasma TV, new receptacle fed from one below it. Does AFCI need depend on whether we blank the old receptacle box?