Do I have to upgrade to AFCI's?

[al hildenbrand]

Mr. McDowell,

Thanks for the update on the device version of the AFCI. Too bad it is not yet available (as far as we know). As I am in an area covered by the 2005 NEC, an AFCI device would permit me to provide AFCI protection to all but the first six feet of the branch circuit emanating from a legacy panel unsupported by the Big Four manufacturer's limited AFCI breaker models.

Minuteman,

While I understand that you could think that GFI protection at just one receptacle is not like AFCI branch circuit protection to just one outlet, I have to agree with Mr. McDowell that the example given by Jeff Sargeant of the NFPA in Post #46 is a good comparison.

I called the NFPA last month to ask them this example: If I add a receptacle to an existing circuit in the bedroom and their response was yes, that new outlet would have to be afci protected, not every other outlet. He also said that it was no different than adding an outlet in the bathroom, the new bathroom outlet would be required to be gfci protected.

The existing outlets are not required to be afci protected when an extention of the circuit is added to connect to a new outlet, however, in order to provide AFCI protection to the new outlet extended off an existing circuit, the only available AFCI equipment must be in the form of a breaker, and, therefor, the remainder of the branch circuit, in addition to extension to the new outlet, will receive AFCI protection.

I read the point of the NFPA statement as being: A new outlet in a bedroom (an outlet extended off an existing circuit) must have AFCI protection, as a new outlet in a bath must have GFCI protection.

 

[LarryFine]

"I'd like a price on adding a receptacle to power a wall-mounted TV."

"Yes, sir. That will be $1800."

"!"

 

[Minuteman]

"I'd like a price on adding a receptacle to power a wall-mounted TV."

"Yes, sir. That will be $1800."

"!"

Exactly! Meanwhile, BillyBob who works partime at a Big Box store will run in there and do it for $75 cash - no questions asked.

Point is, even if he called NASA and some egg head told him he had to rewire all the way from poco, it's not the same as a GFI because GFI breakers work on the older wiring methods. A GFI breaker won't trip if the cable is squeezed too tight by a staple. A GFI breaker wont trip because of an arc in an old snap switch. A GFI breaker will work on a MWBC.

Apples to Oranges my friend.

 

[cpal]

I know I'm quoting myself but there are AFCI on the market listed for MWBC

This page will get you to a pdf catalog



http://www.eatonelectrical.com/NASA...&c=Apubarticles&cid=983558192127&Sec=products


I think page 118 has this info


Ground Fault Application Notes
Single-pole Type CHGFIs are designed
for use in 2-wire, 120 Vac circuits.
Figure 3-5 shows a typical wiring
configuration.
Two-pole Type CHGFIs are designed
for use in 3-wire, 120/240 Vac circuits,
120 Vac multiwire circuits employing
common, neutral and 2-wire, 240 Vac
circuits obtained from a 120/240 Vac
source.
Figure 3-6 and Figure 3-7 illustrate





Charlie

 

[Minuteman]

Thanks Charlie!

But anyway...

 

[Mike03a3]

I called the NFPA last month to ask them this example: If I add a receptacle to an existing circuit in the bedroom and their response was yes, that new outlet would have to be afci protected, not every other outlet. He also said that it was no different than adding an outlet in the bathroom, the new bathroom outlet would be required to be gfci protected. Out here in California we are still on the 2002 NEC. The use of an afci receptacle to protect down-stream outlets is not technically acceptable at this time as it shows in the 2005 NEC.

I suspect that the correct interpretation of the answer is that the branch circuit that was extended to service the additional bedroom outlet must now be protected by an AFCI breaker, but that unmodified branch circuit(s) serving other bedroom outlets, even in the same room, need not have an AFCI breaker added. It's certainly diffferent from GFCI in a bathroom, since the bedroom requirement is for AFCI protection at the branch circuit level, not the outlet level.

 

[McDowellb]

I suspect that the correct interpretation of the answer is that the branch circuit that was extended to service the additional bedroom outlet must now be protected by an AFCI breaker, but that unmodified branch circuit(s) serving other bedroom outlets, even in the same room, need not have an AFCI breaker added. It's certainly diffferent from GFCI in a bathroom, since the bedroom requirement is for AFCI protection at the branch circuit level, not the outlet level.

My point with the bathroom was that if you added to the existing circuit in the bathroom then you would be required to provide GFCI protection for the new outlets.

 

[Mike03a3]

Point is, even if he called NASA and some egg head told him he had to rewire all the way from poco, it's not the same as a GFI because GFI breakers work on the older wiring methods. A GFI breaker won't trip if the cable is squeezed too tight by a staple. A GFI breaker wont trip because of an arc in an old snap switch. A GFI breaker will work on a MWBC.

Apples to Oranges my friend.

Well, the last part is apples to apples. Either requires a two-pole breaker for a MWBC. It's the ground fault part of the AFCI that causes a single pole AFCI trip on a MWBC, not the arc fault part.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Michael,

Exactly! Meanwhile, BillyBob who works partime at a Big Box store will run in there and do it for $75 cash - no questions asked.

So you are saying we shouldn't put AFCI protection on circuit extensions in beds so we can compete with BillyBob? . . .

Look, The NEC is THE NEC. If you can get by without installing to it, go for it. Adding that bedroom wall mounted TV may well require $1800 worth of electrical work to put an outlet at it. . .The customer will be an ally in applying pressure through whatever avenues he has at his disposal to make the Code more "reasonable".

My fear of loosing the work because I think the price is too high is beside the point. I can't offer to install NONcode work.

it's not the same as a GFI because GFI breakers work on the older wiring methods.

And an AFCI doesn't?. . .They've worked for me. . .

A GFI breaker won't trip if the cable is squeezed too tight by a staple.

Sure it will. If the neutral and ground squeeze together, you'll never keep a GFCI breaker to stay on.

A GFI breaker wont trip because of an arc in an old snap switch.

An AFCI breaker doesn't either. . .takes a 50 to 70 amp arc to trip the "AFCI" circuitry.

 

[monkey]

OK so now we have a customer calling to say "we need a fan installed in our bedroom" So we get there and there is no outlet in the ceiling, just a switched receptacle on the wall. So we then go out to the FPE main service panel from which the bedroom circuit originates as a multiwire. We rip out the FPE and replace it with a new panel so we can install an AFCI., then, since the house has no attic or crawl, we pipe a new circuit all the way to the bedroom just for the fan. Total estimate comes in at $3K. Customer says thank you very much and calls Joe handyman who rigs it up for a hundred bucks.

 

[Minuteman]

Michael,So you are saying we shouldn't put AFCI protection on circuit extensions in beds so we can compete with BillyBob? . . .

Nope, I'm saying the AHJ in the City were I work in most, does not require it on old systems.

An AFCI breaker doesn't either. . .takes a 50 to 70 amp arc to trip the "AFCI" circuitry.

I have seen it with my own eyes. In a small suburb that we work in occasionally. We replaced the load center and installed AFCI protection. Old wire in rigid conduit and old snap switches. Flip on the bed room light - trip AFCI. One of my journeyman chased his tail for 2 hours trying to figure why. I showed up and we figured out that it was the switch.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Nope, I'm saying the AHJ in the City were I work in most, does not require it on old systems.

Like I said, go for it.

Local ordinance modifying 210.12(B) is a fact for some of the country. In my area 210.12(B) is intact, as written, and enforced, as I have been saying.

We replaced the load center and installed AFCI protection. Old wire in rigid conduit and old snap switches. Flip on the bed room light - trip AFCI. One of my journeyman chased his tail for 2 hours trying to figure why. I showed up and we figured out that it was the switch.

Given the wiring method you describe, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the AFCI was operating on the GFP portion of its detection electronics. The snap switch yoke would be grounded by the RMC. I can easily imagine the switch mechanism failing in a way that involved a momentary connection to the yoke. If you had had the opportunity to experiment by placing a GFCI on that same circuit and then flipped the bedroom light snap switch, I'll bet the GFCI would have tripped also.

More interesting to me, is that you, it sounds like, replaced the snap switch, rather than remove the AFCI. That implies the AFCI was left protecting the old wiring. Did you get call backs for the AFCI mis-behaving, then, after the switch repair?

 

[al hildenbrand]

OK so now we have a customer calling to say "we need a fan installed in our bedroom" So we get there and there is no outlet in the ceiling, just a switched receptacle on the wall. So we then go out to the FPE main service panel from which the bedroom circuit originates as a multiwire. We rip out the FPE and replace it with a new panel so we can install an AFCI., then, since the house has no attic or crawl, we pipe a new circuit all the way to the bedroom just for the fan. Total estimate comes in at $3K. Customer says thank you very much and calls Joe handyman who rigs it up for a hundred bucks.

Part of the art of "selling" changes to an existing wiring system is including the "bare bones" price, and then selling up from there.

With no attic or crawl, the new fan has to be piped, wiremolded, or cut and patched into the wall & ceiling, any way. . .so that part costs more than more "work friendly" structures. . .AFCI or not. Whether or not the circuit gets AFCI protection doesn't affect the install of the fan as a existing circuit extension.

As for the FPE panel, replacing that is good salesmanship, but there is no Code that requires it. I have heard of at least one local ordinance saying no alterations are allowed in existing FPE installations without written permission from the AHJ, but most of the country has no such restrictions.

So, find the circuit or multiwire circuit that supplies the branch that supplies the new fan, and connect it to a little subpanel containing the appropriate AFCI from the manufacturer that you choose.

If you sell up, and land the $3K panel replace, etc., good on ya!

And if you sell up the installation of new homeruns to one or more areas of the house, even better yet.

 

[resistance]

AFCI for multi! Learned something new. That's great, if it holds true! Heck Multi circuits saved us time when we had to RI houses.

Thanks Charlie! I'll talk to my distributor, to see if they know anything.

I actually have a catalog with a 3 wire AFCI breaker and didn't no it. I guess working in the field, and managing a business is getting to me!

 

[Mike03a3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike03a3
I suspect that the correct interpretation of the answer is that the branch circuit that was extended to service the additional bedroom outlet must now be protected by an AFCI breaker, but that unmodified branch circuit(s) serving other bedroom outlets, even in the same room, need not have an AFCI breaker added. It's certainly diffferent from GFCI in a bathroom, since the bedroom requirement is for AFCI protection at the branch circuit level, not the outlet level.

​

My point with the bathroom was that if you added to the existing circuit in the bathroom then you would be required to provide GFCI protection for the new outlets.

Not generally true. Only a receptacle would require GFCI.

 

[McDowellb]

Not generally true. Only a receptacle would require GFCI.

Agian, you have missed the point. The point is that GFCI's ONLY came in breaker form back in the dark ages. Just like the AFCI's now.

 

[George Stolz]

Not generally true. Only a receptacle would require GFCI.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, so I could be agreeing or disagreeing with you, Mike.

Every receptacle in a bathroom requires GFCI protection.

The circuitry in between receptacles does not require protection.

However, 210.12 states that the circuit requires AFCI protection not the individual outlets, McDowell. There is a distinct difference in the wording between 210.8 and 210.12.

If they ever make an AFCI receptacle, it would be a voluntary use safety product, as it's almost useless (I'm thinking of the exception in 2005) to meet the current requirements of the NEC, IMO.

 

[Minuteman]

Well said George!

So, what can we glean from this diatribe? What have we learned?

1. The OP does not have to install AFCI for replacing a bedroom duplex recp.
2. AFCI receps are not on the market yet.
3. All new outlets must be AFCI protected per NEC, unless superseded by AHJ.
4. There is a similarity in AFCI & GFCI in the simple fact that code says both are required in specific areas.
5. However, the similarity is flawed, since one may be installed to protect only a single required outlet and the other must be installed to protect the circuit.

There is more, but not of any merit.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Well said George!

So, what can we glean from this diatribe? What have we learned?

1. The OP does not have to install AFCI for replacing a bedroom duplex recp.
2. AFCI receps are not on the market yet.
3. All new outlets must be AFCI protected per NEC, unless superseded by AHJ.
4. There is a similarity in AFCI & GFCI in the simple fact that code says both are required in specific areas.
5. However, the similarity is flawed, since one may be installed to protect only a single required outlet and the other must be installed to protect the circuit.

OK, then!

"Similar" = resembling

not:

"Same as" or "identical to"

A grounding type duplex receptacle in a bath and in a bed physically appear identical.

They are similar because they must be provided an additional level of protection beyond the simple over current.

The additional level of protection of a new bed receptacle and a new bath receptacle is not identical.

Using "similar" to mean "identical" is flawed.

I agree with your #4 stated as:
There is a similarity in AFCI & GFCI in the simple fact that code says both are required for outlets in specific areas.

If I install a homerun through the inside of a bed it DOES NOT need AFCI protection. The circuit does not need AFCI protection because it is "in" the bed. (Say the bed is between the panel and the living room and I place the living room homerun in a surface mounted raceway inside the bed.) The living room homerun ONLY needs AFCI if it has an outlet on it that is located in the bed.

Even better, and just for giggles. . .imagine the living room homerun wired in NM-B, passing through the bedroom, surface mounted on a running board close to the ceiling. As vulnerable as my common sense tells me the NM-B is, I can do this, by Code (334.15(A)), and not provide AFCI to the "circuit in the bed". . .that is, unless the homerun has an outlet along it that is in the bed.

The narrow attention to AFCI protection being for "circuits" is straining at a gnat, and not including the requirement that the circuit must have an outlet, the location of which triggers the Code language.

 

[Mike03a3]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, so I could be agreeing or disagreeing with you, Mike.

I was replying to the statement:

My point with the bathroom was that if you added to the existing circuit in the bathroom then you would be required to provide GFCI protection for the new outlets.

My intention was to merely point out that the statement was incorrect. If I add a new receptacle in a bathroom it must be GFCI protected. That does not extend to the general case of adding an outlet.