GFCI for refrigerator

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wireman3736

Senior Member
Location
Vermont/Mass.
dlhoule said:
If you are using GFCI, you may as well have it be a SA branch circuit.
It doesn't change anything if you are not within 6' of the sink.
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I was basing my thoughts on the original question from (mcasas) where the receptacle is 3' from the sink, And then I added if the new wording gets accepted into the 2008 code then would it be required to be gfci protected? :rolleyes:
 
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wireman3736

Senior Member
Location
Vermont/Mass.
Minuteman said:
For me, the question would be:

Can a GFCI nuisance trip cause spoiled food?

If so, than under no circumstance should a fridge be plugged into a GFCI.
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I believe if the installation did require a gfci then spoiled food would have no effect on the requirements, if someone has a fridge on there porch are they allowed to remove the gfci and install a non gfci protected receptacle to avoid spoiled food. I agree the fridge on a gfci should be avoided if at all possible.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Minuteman said:
For me, the question would be:

Can a GFCI nuisance trip cause spoiled food?

If so, than under no circumstance should a fridge be plugged into a GFCI.
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Micheal you are going to have to shelf that train of thought.

Currently the NEC requires all 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles to be GFCI protected in non-dwelling kitchens....no exceptions.

All vending machines including refrigerated ones must be GFCI protected.

In the 2008 NEC it is likely that the exceptions for GFCIs in cellars and garages are being removed.

We are just gonna have to get used to it.

The manufactures of appliances will have to address the leakage current issues that have been a problem.

A couple things we can do to prevent nuisance trips.

Use one GFCI for each separate piece of equipment.

Each appliance has some leakage current, each adding up pushing closer to the trip limit.

Do not place the GFCI at the panel if the circuit length is long as that also tends to cause problems.

Most of our jobs are commercial and the engineers will specify a GFCI duplex at each point of use. They do not have us 'load side' any GFCIs.
 
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dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
When I'm looking at an installation, I do ask the "Is it a big deal question ?" to myself, but I stick with a 3 part process and take one part at a time. I try not to intermix the thinking processes of the 3 parts

part 1) What does the code actually say ?
part 2) Is there a realistic shock or fire hazard involved ?
part 3) Is it a big deal ? On this step, I try to bring in opinions from my fellow inspectors at my office, posters on this site, and maybe other inspectors that I can call

So when I read this sentence,

iwire said:
.....it is also not a big deal if someone plugs an extra piece of utilization equipment into what was intended to be a individual branch circuit.
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I thought to myself, "He's moved onto part 3 and that opens up discussion"

David
 
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iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
dnem said:
iwire said:
When I'm looking at an installation, I do ask the "Is it a big deal question ?" to myself, but I stick with a 3 part process and take one part at a time. I try not to intermix the thinking processes of the 3 parts

part 1) What does the code actually say ?
part 2) Is there a realistic shock or fire hazard involved ?
part 3) Is it a big deal ? On this step, I try to bring in opinions from my fellow inspectors at my office, posters on this site, and maybe other inspectors that I can call
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David I do not recall posting any of that.
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infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
The manufactures of appliances will have to address the leakage current issues that have been a problem.
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This is a common sense approach but it doesn't take into account old equipment that may still be working. In the end Joe homeowner is the one who pays if his 20 year old freezer cannot be used anymore.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
infinity said:
In the end Joe homeowner is the one who pays if his 20 year old freezer cannot be used anymore.
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Yes but also that 20 year old refrigerator is a potential hazard if the EGC is compromised.

Besides this is nothing new here.

Most of us will be buying new TVs or buying converters when the FCC stops analog TV broadcasts in a few years.
 
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dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Sorry Bob,
I didn't check my post. It was screwed up. This was what it was supposed to say:

When I'm looking at an installation, I do ask the "Is it a big deal question ?" to myself, but I stick with a 3 part process and take one part at a time. As I take each part, I try not to intermix the thinking processes of lower parts. In other words: When I consider part 1, I don't think about parts 2 or 3. When I consider part 2, it's based on part 1 but doesn't include the concept in part 3. And finally, part 3 includes the whole thing.

part 1) What does the code actually say ?
part 2) Is there a realistic shock or fire hazard involved ?
part 3) Is it a big deal ? On this step, I try to bring in opinions from my fellow inspectors at my office, posters on this site, and maybe other inspectors that I can call

So when I read this sentence,

iwire said:
.....it is also not a big deal if someone plugs an extra piece of utilization equipment into what was intended to be a individual branch circuit.
Click to expand...

I thought to myself, "He's moved onto part 3 and that opens up discussion"

David

And the quote came from here:

iwire said:
I don't know Charlie, I love ya but I think your ignoring the obvious. ;) :)

An inspector can not fail a job based only on multiple receptacles on a individual branch circuit.

I have read your thoughts and I ask that you try to read mine with an open mind.

I used to work as a maintenance man, in our shops we had multiple 50 amp receptacles around the shops to serve a welder. These receptacles where all suppled by the same branch circuit.

We would roll the welder to where we needed it and plug it in.

This to me, this was, and is, an individual branch circuit for exclusive use of the welder.

As is any multi-receptacle outlet circuit supplying one piece of utilization equipment.

We have to also ask ourselves how many places in the code other than the already mentioned refrigerator scenario is an individual branch circuit for cord and plug connected required?

Not many I suspect so as it is not required it is also not a big deal if someone plugs an extra piece of utilization equipment into what was intended to be a individual branch circuit.

Anyway if you want to leave it as we both 'won' thats fine I have made my point. :)

I have enjoyed this exchange and have at least one or two threads to start as spin offs of this one.:cool:
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sparky_magoo

sparky_magoo

Senior Member
Location
Reno
LarryFine said:
Woldn't this be the same as using a duplex to supply, say, a dishwasher?
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When I install a dishwashwer receptacle, assuming there isn't a disposal outlet in the same box, I always break off the tabs to disable the second receptacle. My present company is too cheap to buy single receptacles.
 
D

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
georgestolz said:
David, so are you saying it is a big deal, or not?
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part 1) What does the code actually say ?

My answer is code says either receptacle is OK on a 20amp circuit.
Single is OK on a 15amp, Duplex is not allowed on a 15amp.

part 2) Is there a realistic shock or fire hazard involved ?

For the duplex on a 15amp, my answer is no shock or fire hazard. The realistic worse case scenerio is tripping the 15amp breaker if a second piece of equipment increases the current too much.

part 3) Is it a big deal ? On this step, I try to bring in opinions from my fellow inspectors at my office, posters on this site, and maybe other inspectors that I can call

My answer is, no it's not a big deal and I have so many items to check on my final inspection that crosschecking the fridge duplex with the breaker size just doesn't make it onto my mental checklist. I would also assume that, if the contractor was on site, he wouldn't volunteer the information that he put the fridge on a duplex and also a 15amp individual branch circuit.

David
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I got hammered from almost all sides in this older thread.

No one wanted to accept the definition of "Individual Branch Circuit" as written in the NEC.

In a nutshell my position has always been the an Individual Branch Circuit can serve more than one receptacle.

Now I have a recent CMP comments to further back my view point.:)





2-2 Log # 3 NEC-P02
Final Action:
Reject
(100.Branch Circuit, Individual)

Submitter:
Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC

Recommendation:
Revise as follows:
A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment or a single receptacle.

Substantiation:

A branch circuit with multiple unused receptacles but supplying only one equipment literally meets the present definition. An individual branch circuit may supply any load for which it is rated. A branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles (could be a duplex) is limited to loads specified in 2 0.23(A)( ) and (A)(2). By special permission, a circuit with multiple receptacles (could be other than parallel blade type) to supply utilization equipment that is normally or regularly moved (such as a welder or floor polisher) may still be considered as an individual circuit. An approved utilization equipment with two supply cords/caps is still one utilization equipment and could utilize a multiple receptacle, per the proposal.

Panel Meeting Action:
Reject

Panel Statement:
The definition proposed by the submitter is too restrictive.
A receptacle other than a single receptacle could be used and other means such as configuration or arrangement of the equipment could limit the application to a single utilization equipment.



Number Eligible to Vote: 12

Ballot Results:
Affirmative: 2
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B

Brady Electric

Senior Member
Location
Asheville, N. C.
GFCI for ref

GFCI for ref

No the ref doesn't have to be a GFCI. Ref can be on a duplex 15A circuit according to code, but I always put them on a 20A duplex outlet just to cover the size of the ref. There again we don't know what size of ref a customer will use. The rec should be a single outlet but most inspectors pass a duplex since its behind the ref and not accessible. I wire house's as if I am going to live there and never had a complaint. I also understand if you are just doing spec houses you usually just put in the least you have to according to the NEC. Semper Fi. Buddy.
 
Jim W in Tampa

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
That duplex is on a wall not counter space.Should the owner wish they might just want to put a radio on top of that frig or a clock.Is one possable exception if that frig requires a dedicated circuit,then and only then would i require a single.
 
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