Panel in closet

[Volta]

So just what is in the vicinity ? ...

Doesn't matter, IMO the whole clothes closset it disallowed.

Some other areas too . . .

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think that it is pretty easy.

Overcurrent protective devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitable material, such as clothes closets.

It is pretty clear, IMO.
:grin:

I also find it clear but I do understand the problem with the way it is worded. With the wording an inspector may say that a garage is not a legal place for a panel because people often store fuel and lawn equipment dependent on fuel.

If I hang a picture over a panel am I in violation of the code. Canvas is flammable and easily ignited I suppose or are we only talking about Mohair sweaters, etc.

Can I install a panel in a barn where they store hay etc.? The big question is what does in the vicinity mean. This is my point about a clothes closet.

Let's be ridiculous and install the panel in a clothes closet but we install a door to cover the panel. Let's say it's a standard door that I can open to get the breakers. Is this legal?

 

[Volta]

All good points, Dennis.

But interpretation is allowed and/or needed for those that you listed, but are not listed in 240.24(D). The phrase ends with "in clothes closets', seeming to be an example of what a 'vicinity of easily ignitable material' can be.

'In clothes closets', IMO, includes every portion, of each and every "non-habitable room or space intended primarily for the storage of garments and apparel". Whether reasonable, warranted, justified- or not.

Now, if the occupant does not intend to use the space primarily for such storage, we might have a case.

And as Bob suggested, most times, in modern panels (residentially, anyhow), the enclosure does a good job of containing arcs.
Good enough, though?
Loadcenters are allowed to exist without an external cover leaving the faces of the breakers exposed through the deadfront.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Doesn't matter, IMO the whole clothes closset it disallowed.

Some other areas too . . .

NEC did not say clothes
bit gray here. Closets sometimes are huge so just maybe the closet could have clothes at one end and panel 12 feet away and nothing in work space. I have installed panels in laundry rooms and they sometimes have clothes rods but they call it laundry room not closet.

 

[Volta]

NEC did not say clothes

?? Sure they did. Second to last word of 240.24(D).

bit gray here. Closets sometimes are huge so just maybe the closet could have clothes at one end and panel 12 feet away and nothing in work space. I have installed panels in laundry rooms and they sometimes have clothes rods but they call it laundry room not closet.

In line with the definition a laundry room is not 'intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel'.

But live by the call, die by the call, so I have to admit that the definition does not limit a 'clothes closet' to an exact room, but allows it to be a 'space'. So, I guess, sometimes, in some part of a building, with a heavy sigh, I would give in, and see that one could be in a room labeled Clothes Closet, but not be in a "space intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel".

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

240.24d says such as clothes closets. I take that as an example but not a restriction. If the clothes, shelves, and rod are not near them what would be issue ? Might be behind the door.
I have one behind a oil painting, is that ok ? I know it could catch fire but panel has cover.
A panel in a garage would be far more likely to have serious issues being gas tank could easily be within a few feet.
Nec never spares words accept on issues like this that are far from clear. Just what is vicinity ? What is easily ignitable ? What if i have wall paper on that wall with a panel ?

 

[haskindm]

The day I have to start calling ahead to have somebody tell me how to do my job is the day I send my license through the shredder.

You are not asking how to do your job, you are asking the inspector (assuming the inspector is, or is acting as, the AHJ) to do their job. 90.4 says that the AHJ "has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules".
The code making panels know that they cannot write a code that will be clear in all situations, so they have appointed the AHJ to make interpretations when needed. When you are in a situation where it is obvious that different people may interpret the requirements differently, it only makes sense to ask ahead of time how it will be interpreted. When is a closet a clothes closet? What is the difference between a storage area and a closet? If I remove the clothes rod from a closet, is it no longer a "clothes closet"? This is subject to interpretation. I would rather ask the question before I do the work (or give an estimate) than to ASSUME that I know how it will be interpreted and then find out I was wrong. Part of your job as an electrician is to find out how the AHJ will interpret the code.

 

[growler]

If I remove the clothes rod from a closet, is it no longer a "clothes closet"? This is subject to interpretation.

Most people would tend to think so but it's still open for interpretation ( you are corrrect, my opinion ). The only definition I can find for "clothes closet" is and area where linens or clothing is stored and it doesn't say anything about being on a rod or even on a shelf.

So if you were to put you clothing in a box or bag and store them in a closet would it be a clothes closet? I don't have the slighest idea. Someone has to make this judgement call.

I have an idea of how to clear this up. If you intend to use a closet for a mechanical or electrical closet then put a sign on the door that states that it's for mechanical or electrical and not for storage.

If they will require this by code I will have the signs manufactured in China and sell them on-line. I think I see a chance to make some money here.

 

[Volta]

Most people would tend to think so but it's still open for interpretation ( you are corrrect, my opinion ). The only definition I can find for "clothes closet" is and area where linens or clothing is stored and it doesn't say anything about being on a rod or even on a shelf.
....

There is one in Article 100.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is one in Article 100.

I think this will do it.

Clothes Closet. A non-habitable room or space intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel.

 

[growler]

Most people would tend to think so but it's still open for interpretation ( you are corrrect, my opinion ). The only definition I can find for "clothes closet" is and area where linens or clothing is stored and it doesn't say anything about being on a rod or even on a shelf.

There is one in Article 100.

Yes there is, I had walk out to the truck an look at the 2008. I didn't find one in the 2005 so I looked in the building code book and they used both linens and clothing.

Ok so let's see how clear this definition is.:grin:

clothes closet: a non-habitable room or "Space" intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel.

OK so what is the intended primary function of this closet? Is it the storage of clothes or to serve as an electrical closet?

Let me see, we have a bedroom with an adjacent electrical closet that serves a secondary funtion for clothing storage tha just happen to not be easily ignitable. So I can use this closet to store my fire proof clothing.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Yes there is, I had walk out to the truck an look at the 2008. I didn't find one in the 2005 so I looked in the building code book and they used both linens and clothing.

Ok so let's see how clear this definition is.:grin:

clothes closet: a non-habitable room or "Space" intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel.

OK so what is the intended primary function of this closet? Is it the storage of clothes or to serve as an electrical closet?

Let me see, we have a bedroom with an adjacent electrical closet that serves a secondary funtion for clothing storage tha just happen to not be easily ignitable. So I can use this closet to store my fire proof clothing.

There's no exception for fireproof clothing.
Clothing, no matter the kind, would be illegal

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The use of a closet that is empty is what ? Clothes ? what clothes.
Still leaves very gray area. Habitable lends its self to question too. How big does it need to be to be habitable. My office is very small 6 feet by 12 feet, some have closets bigger than that. My office is actually 1 of 3 closets in my bedroom.And i really do need a bigger office.

 

[growler]

There's no exception for fireproof clothing.
Clothing, no matter the kind, would be illegal

That's just your interpretation. Where do you find that stated?

240.24 (D) Not in vicinty of eaily ignitable material. Over current devices shall not be located in the vacinity of easily ignitable material, such as clothes closet.

So what's a clothes closet? we may think we know but just to make sure we have to check aticle 100 for definitions.

Clothes Closet: a non-habitable room or space intended "primarily" for the storage of clothes and apparel.

I don't see where it says clothing, no matter what kind. It does state that you can't locate in the vicinty of easily ignitable materials and it does say "such as a clothes closets" but the storage of my fire proof clothing is not the primary function of this closet, so it's not a clothes closet. The primary use of this closet was actually to grow pot as can be seen from the grow lamp that is also used as a light source for those needing to work on the panel. We don't violate the work space rules because the pot plant can easily be removed to allow access and work clearance.

Now that we have gotten past the NEC let's see what we can do about the ATF. Glaucoma anyone? It's medicinal folks.......

If people could actually understand our laws then we wouldn't need lawyers. Where would we be then?

 

[One-eyed Jack]

Yes there is, I had walk out to the truck an look at the 2008. I didn't find one in the 2005 so I looked in the building code book and they used both linens and clothing.

Ok so let's see how clear this definition is.:grin:

clothes closet: a non-habitable room or "Space" intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel.

OK so what is the intended primary function of this closet? Is it the storage of clothes or to serve as an electrical closet?

Let me see, we have a bedroom with an adjacent electrical closet that serves a secondary funtion for clothing storage tha just happen to not be easily ignitable. So I can use this closet to store my fire proof clothing.[/quote]

You could use that argument but I would not accept it. There is no ambiguity in the wording "such as a clothes closet"

 

[Volta]

You could use that argument but I would not accept it. There is no ambiguity in the wording "such as a clothes closet"

I agree, and I maintain that overcurrent protective devices are not allowed in any area of a NEC "clothes closet". Period.

The problem we will have on this side of the debate, to me, rests squarely on the Article 100 definition of 'closet space'.

It is not bounded by walls, so we could have a large room labeled clothes closet on the builder's plans, and have one area of it intended for storage, the other area for a mirror, and only the former is an NEC 'clothes closet'.

I feel that in any common residential room that I would normally call a closet with clothing in it is very clearly dissallowed from having OCP devices installed in it.

But not every one we open is for clothing storage, and not every one intended for such storage necessarily is completely encompassed within the NEC definition.

That is my lane for the day .

 

[iwire]

Just saying .......

 

[SEO]

Just saying .......

Bob is that your bedroom closet?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There isn't any wall space to put a panel in that closet however, that was not Bob's point.

I did a walk in closet where every item had it's own cabinet with doors for clothes. So is the room a closet or are the cabinets the closet?

I actually got the architect to change the name of the room on the drawing to dressing room because he wanted a chandelier over a center island (table). The inspection department gave it their OKay....

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Hmmmm , really not too sure what to call that room but have seen a few like it. Guess answer depends on what the print called it.