Max number of recepts per circuit

[colosparker]

(B) Adequacy This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

Charlie,

I have read it. How does this apply to my jurisdiction? Can my jurisdiction adopt the FPN (that wasn't included by Don), or for that matter, can they make their own interpretation with respect to 220.14(J)? I understand what you are saying about the NEC as a document, in it, and that of itself. But I am talking about the NEC and how it is applied throughout this country in every day use by electricians and the inspector/AHJ.

You mentioned that you noticed I do QA inspections, rather than actual electrical inspections. I base my opinions (in this forum)on my experience as an electrician. As a QA inspector I enforce specifications. The code issues I typically leave up to our state inspector. When the state electrical inspector doesn't want to enforce the minimum, I can override him with our specs which state "must meet code". That happens all the time with work space clearance issues. I wish the NEC/enforcement was a black and white issue, but I understand there has to be some give and take on either side.

I see you come from a military background. I spent 10 years with a company that built fighter planes for the USAF (and the a few for the Navy). That contractor used military specifications. When a plane crashed and burned and a pilot was killed due to Kapton wire chafing there was nobody to sue. The laws were written to protect the contractors. The electrical laws adopted by local jurisdictions are meant to protect the consumer, even if it is something as meaningless as nuisance tripping of a breaker IMO.

Dave

 

[colosparker]

The Colorado State Electrical Board licenses journeymen electricians, master electricians, and residential wiremen. Electrical apprentices and electrical contractors are required to register with the Board.

The Board also performs electrical inspections on new and remodeled facilities throughout the state in its areas of jurisdiction and inspects all public schools throughout the state.

The standard used by the Board is the National Electrical Code as may be amended.

What is your point?

 

[colosparker]

I wonder why so bitter towards inspectors,

I am not bitter toward inspectors, they have a job to do just like I do. 8) I do get angry when inspectors try to go beyond the adopted rules.

Just as I am required to follow all the adopted rules of a jurisdiction the inspectors must also enforce only the adopted rules.

I know you feel you are doing the right thing 'for the common good' but that is not how laws and codes are enforced.

How can I as an EC be expected to follow rules or ideas that only exist in your head?

Failing me after I have completed the job for unwritten rules is just plain wrong. (As in, if you told me ahead of time of any 'special' requests I might just be a nice guy and do them)

The job will have been bid based on the adopted codes, if you ask for more you are literally taking money out of the ECs bank. It is not supposed to work that way.

If you find a real NEC violation than certainly fail me cost me money, I will not make the same mistake again. 8)

Bob

Iwire,
I'm not talking about unwritten rules. Most electrical contractors read the local rules before they start a job. With respect to 220.14(J), I don't think the average electrician is going to have an issue with dividing the receptacles throughout the required general lighting load branch circuit, if that is how the local jurisdiction inteprets said rule.

An inspector that fails you for uwritten rules, is a bad inspector. An inspector enforcing his/her jurisdictions interpretation of a code, is an inspector doing his/her job. If you don't agree with their interpretation, there are remedies.

 

[roger]

Dave, did you even read the links you provided for your area, they spell it out, and it does not go along with your "interpretation" of what they do.

The word "interpretation" may be where you are getting lost. :roll:

Might it be that as a contractor you simply cave into every inspectors wants and wishes and are trying to tell us that is the way everyone should do it. Giving into someone with a large ego (i.e. an inspector who thinks he is god) is simply being spineless IMO.

It won't happen here, sorry that it does to you.

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

The Colorado State Electrical Board licenses journeymen electricians, master electricians, and residential wiremen. Electrical apprentices and electrical contractors are required to register with the Board.

The Board also performs electrical inspections on new and remodeled facilities throughout the state in its areas of jurisdiction and inspects all public schools throughout the state.

The standard used by the Board is the National Electrical Code as may be amended.

What is your point?

My point is simple:
The people who give the license to the electrical contractor is the same people who do the inspections.

Would they say one thing to the electrican and another to the inspector?

The same book is used for both are they not?

What is a QA inspector?

 

[iwire]

Iwire,
I'm not talking about unwritten rules. Most electrical contractors read the local rules before they start a job. With respect to 220.14(J), I don't think the average electrician is going to have an issue with dividing the receptacles throughout the required general lighting load branch circuit, if that is how the local jurisdiction inteprets said rule.

Saying 220.14(J) limits the number of receptacles is not an interpretation, it is a change from the wording and if we believe the quoted CMP member a change from the intent.

That being the case your area if they want to limit the number of receptacles should make a code amendment with that limit spelled out.

You all want a limit fine, just put it in writing.

We have some local towns that have very peculiar fire alarm system rules, its not a problem complying as they are in writing and most times are handed out when a permit is obtained. 8)

 

[colosparker]

Dave, did you even read the links you provided for your area, they spell it out, and it does not go along with your "interpretation" of what they do.

The word "interpretation" may be where you are getting lost. :roll:

Might it be that as a contractor you simply cave into every inspectors wants and wishes and are trying to tell us that is the way everyone should do it. Giving into someone with a large ego (i.e. an inspector who thinks he is god) is simply being spineless IMO.

It won't happen here, sorry that it does to you.

Roger

Roger,
It is spelled out in the link I gave to this forum. I'm not a contractor.

Dave

 

[colosparker]

My point is simple:
The people who give the license to the electrical contractor is the same people who do the inspections.

Would they say one thing to the electrican and another to the inspector?

The same book is used for both are they not?

What is a QA inspector?

 

[colosparker]

What is a QA inspector?

It is someone that does quality assurance inspections. I work for a large owner (4 million square feet plus), and they contract lots of electrical work and lots of electrical design work.

I still do not read 220.14(J) to say that the number of receptacles on the aforementioned branch circuit is "unlimited". I have never met an electrical inspector or an electrician that would assume such a thing until I started reading this forum. I pointed out the wording in the Colorado Electrical R&R's, which gives the inspector the right to approve an installation.

 

[colosparker]

Saying 220.14(J) limits the number of receptacles is not an interpretation, it is a change from the wording and if we believe the quoted CMP member a change from the intent.

The intent is to include the receptacle load with the general lighting load calculation. Where does it say the intent is that the number of receptacles is "unlimited"?

220.14(J) Dwelling Occupancies. In one-family, two-family, and multi-family dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels,the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and (J)(3) are included
in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12. No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.

There's the code reference. Please explain to me how you interpret this to mean you can put all the receptacles in a dwelling, hotel, motel on one circuit should you decide that's how you want to wire the dwelling, hotel, motel?

You speak of a "CMP member". Code Making Panel member? I think the CMP memebr would agree with me that we include the receptales in the general lighting load calculation, and that they are evenly divided along this general lighting load branch circuit. CMP members have no bearing on an AHJ's right to approve an electrical installation.

 

[jwelectric]

What is a QA inspector?

It is someone that does quality assurance inspections. I work for a large owner (4 million square feet plus), and they contract lots of electrical work and lots of electrical design work.

I still do not read 220.14(J) to say that the number of receptacles on the aforementioned branch circuit is "unlimited". I have never met an electrical inspector or an electrician that would assume such a thing until I started reading this forum. I pointed out the wording in the Colorado Electrical R&R's, which gives the inspector the right to approve an installation.

?PIKES PEAK REGIONAL BUILDING DEPARTMENT?
GENERAL LIGHTING BRANCH CIRCUITS ? Circuits must be computed on a three watts per foot basis. Up to 600 square feet of living area may be wired on a 15 ampere branch circuit or up to 800 square feet on a 20 ampere circuit. These branch circuits may supply lighting outlets in all areas of the dwelling and receptacle outlets other than those described in the following paragraphs of this section.

?PIKES PEAK REGIONAL BUILDING CODES 2005?

RBC103.1 GENERAL POWERS AND DUTIES. The administrator of the Building Department, hereinafter known as the Building Official, is hereby authorized and directed to enforce all provisions of this Code.

RBC103.13 AUTHORITY TO RECORD A
CERTIFICATE OF ALLEGED NONCOMPLIANCE. The Building Official shall have the authority to record a certificate of alleged noncompliance thirty (30) calendar days after notice of non compliance is posted on the building or sent by certified mail to this individual or entity as concerns any work done by any individual, or entity which allegedly fails to comply with the final inspection requirements of this Code. When the individual or entity has made appropriate corrections so that the work then complies with this Code, the Building Official may record a release of the certificate of alleged non-compliance.

Here it are the links that you posted. I can clearly see that the Building Official can enforce this code and I also see where I must not have more than 600 square feet on a 15 amp circuit. I also see where it states that I can have but am not limilted to 10,000 duplex receptacles in that same sentence.

Due to the adoption of this code by Pikes Peak section 220.14(J) will have no bearing on this discussion.

 

[colosparker]

But speaking now only for myself, I do not want my government to force me to do it.

Charlie,

Why do you think they are forcing you to do it? Your jurisdiction is going to have a standard (interpretation), not necessarily a law. Their standard could be an even division of the recpeptacles throughout the general lighting load branch circuit. You keep refering to the NEC as a law, IMO it is only the minimum standard. Is an electrician breaking the law if he exceeds the pipe fill in a 1/2" conduit by one #12THHN conductor, and he doesn't tell the inspector? :wink: IMO no, he is exceeding the minimum standard.

I had mentioned a set number of outlets in this thread, but I was refering to the practice electrical inspectors used some 25+ years ago when I was wiring homes in North Texas. I think you are hung up by the fact that I mentioned specific numbers of receptacles on this branch circuit in this thread. If I did say that in reference to the jurisdiction where I live now, I was wrong. Generally, when wiring a dwelling you evenly divide them throughout the branch circuits required. How many homes have you wired were you put all of the receptacles on one circuit because of 220.14(J). Do you think you could do that in your jurisdiction and get away with it?

This thread started with the misconception of Table 210.24. Later somebody complained about an inspector requiring 2 AFCI homeruns instead of one for a four bedroom dwelling. I believe this issue comes up alot when a contractor wants to use one AFCI breaker for a four+ bedroom dwelling. I still think an AHJ can force you to do their interpretation of 220.14(J), and they can appove the installation based on said interpretation.

Dave

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Dave,

Is an electrician breaking the law if he exceeds the pipe fill in a 1/2" conduit by one #12THHN conductor, and he doesn't tell the inspector?

Yes he is. The code when adopted is not just a standard, it is a law.
Don

 

[hdm]

The NEC allows you to us 80% of the rating on the ckt. Then allows 1.5 amps per Receptacles.

On a 20 amp ckt this is only 16 amps usable and 16/ 1.5=10.6.

So you can put 10 Receptacles on a 20 amp ckt.

 

[charlie b]

The NEC . . . allows 1.5 amps per Receptacle.

Not true. It tells us to count each receptacle as 180 VA, when we add up the loads for a service calculation. That is not the same as saying we can install no more than a given number of receptacles on a branch circuit.

 

[roger]

The NEC allows you to us 80% of the rating on the ckt. Then allows 1.5 amps per Receptacles.

On a 20 amp ckt this is only 16 amps usable and 16/ 1.5=10.6.

Do tell, what article and section limits a General Use Receptacle Circuit to 80%.

Also, the 180 va per receptacle is not for residential receptacles.

Roger

 

[colosparker]

Yes he is. The code when adopted is not just a standard, it is a law.
Don

Don,

When I read through the Colorado State Electrical Law Rules and Regulations, I see the NEC defined as a minimum standard. I guess I don't see each individual code reference as a law, but I see your point.

Dave

 

[colosparker]

That is not the same as saying we can install no more than a given number of receptacles on a branch circuit.

Charlie,

In a new dwelling in your jurisdiction can you put all of the receptacles (not including the required ones) on one circuit and get the installation approved?

Also, where is your jurisdiction, ie. state, county, city?

Dave

 

[colosparker]

Also, the 180 va per receptacle is not for residential receptacles.

Roger

I never thought I would agree with someone on this thread until now. Way to tell him Roger.

BTW, where is your jurisdiction? Do they let you put all of the receptacles (not including the required ones) on one circuit in a dwelling in your jurisdiction?

Dave

 

[charlie b]

Charlie, In a new dwelling in your jurisdiction can you put all of the receptacles (not including the required ones) on one circuit and get the installation approved?

I could (not including the ones that are required to be on their own circuits, such as bathroom receptacles). If I chose to do so, I would expect the Inspector to do no more than perhaps to groan sadly before he or she signs off the permit.

But I would not choose to do so. As a Professional Engineer, my primary duty is to safeguard the safety of the public. I do that by following the code. As an employee, my second duty is to protect the interests of the company. I do that by doing each job well, by making our customers happy, and by bringing in repeat business. Finally, as a "good guy," it is my pleasure, and not a duty, to try and give the customer what I would want if I were the customer.

Also, where is your jurisdiction, ie. state, county, city?

My jurisdiction appears in my signature line.