Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

[tom baker]

Do not forget to add a jumper from the cold waterlines to the hot waterlines. I do this at the hot water tank.

Is that a code or local requirement?

 

[iwire]

Also remember that connections to showers and the such cannot be verified on the final.

Sure they can be, put a meter between the hot and cold, if you have continuity there is noting to bond or look at.

 

[ceb58]

Let me ask this. Where did they come up with the term "Likely to be energised" from for the water lines? Was it due to the fact the lines were connected to a water heater that could short out? To me the word "likely" would infer there was a real good chance of something happening.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Is that a code or local requirement?

Tom

It is an intrpretation. And again I use the information in the handbook and in the Power Point presentation provided by the IAEI.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Sure they can be, put a meter between the hot and cold, if you have continuity there is noting to bond or look at.

Bob

Who does this testing? Does an inspector test or just do a visual inspection?

We all know that waterline connections, threaded, corrode.

Yes I think that there is continuity. And the breaker 'should' trip.

I do not want to have to defend "reasonably concluded".

 

[jxofaltrds]

Let me ask this. Where did they come up with the term "Likely to be energised" from for the water lines? Was it due to the fact the lines were connected to a water heater that could short out? To me the word "likely" would infer there was a real good chance of something happening.

Likely!!!!!

I have argued that too. Never won.

IMHO if it is properly installed it will never become energized.

 

[RH1]

Here in Los Angeles inspectors have been requiring me to bond the hot-cold at the water heater for years. We have no local amendment that requires this. The conversation goes like this:

INSPECTOR: "Ah, not so fast there, Sparky, you're gonna need to bond the water heater"

RH1: "Can you show me the code requirement for that?"

INSPECTOR: "I don't have to, I'm telling you to do it"

RH1: "Are you a Code Enforcement Official?"

INSPECTOR: "Yes I am"

RH1: "You enforce building codes?"

INSPECTOR: "Yes I do"

RH1: "Which code are you enforcing right now?"

INSPECTOR: "Look, if you want to take it up with the Chief, you can, but it will delay your job a week"

RH1: "OK, You win, I'll bond the water heater"

 

[jxofaltrds]

Here in Los Angeles inspectors have been requiring me to bond the hot-cold at the water heater for years. We have no local amendment that requires this. The conversation goes like this:

INSPECTOR: "Ah, not so fast there, Sparky, you're gonna need to bond the water heater"

RH1: "Can you show me the code requirement for that?"

INSPECTOR: "I don't have to, I'm telling you to do it"

RH1: "Are you a Code Enforcement Official?"

INSPECTOR: "Yes I am"

RH1: "You enforce building codes?"

INSPECTOR: "Yes I do"

RH1: "Which code are you enforcing right now?"

INSPECTOR: "Look, if you want to take it up with the Chief, you can, but it will delay your job a week"

RH1: "OK, You win, I'll bond the water heater"

That is crap.

In Ohio you are entitled to a code reference.

No! this is my playground. It use to be that way and some still try.

The state will take the certifications away from those who are mis-using their power.

 

[electricmanscott]

Yes. Teflon tape on fittings. Pipe dope. Pex supply lines from shut offs to a faucet.

Also remember that connections to showers and the such cannot be verified on the final.

.

So do you bond every peice of threaded gas pipe if you think it's likely to become energized? By your own view each and every piece and fitting is insulated from each other.


This is getting silly.

There is NO specfic code requirement that requires you to bond between the hot and cold water pipes. Under certain rare circumstances you may find that you have to but in the overwhelming majority of cases you don't.

If you are concerned about shower connections look on the rough. There are tons of things that can't be verified on a final inspection. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[electricmanscott]

Here in Los Angeles inspectors have been requiring me to bond the hot-cold at the water heater for years. We have no local amendment that requires this. The conversation goes like this:

INSPECTOR: "Ah, not so fast there, Sparky, you're gonna need to bond the water heater"

RH1: "Can you show me the code requirement for that?"

INSPECTOR: "I don't have to, I'm telling you to do it"

RH1: "Are you a Code Enforcement Official?"

INSPECTOR: "Yes I am"

RH1: "You enforce building codes?"

INSPECTOR: "Yes I do"

RH1: "Which code are you enforcing right now?"

INSPECTOR: "Look, if you want to take it up with the Chief, you can, but it will delay your job a week"

RH1: "OK, You win, I'll bond the water heater"

I'll take the delay.

 

[jxofaltrds]

So do you bond every peice of threaded gas pipe if you think it's likely to become energized? By your own view each and every piece and fitting is insulated from each other.


This is getting silly.

There is NO specfic code requirement that requires you to bond between the hot and cold water pipes. Under certain rare circumstances you may find that you have to but in the overwhelming majority of cases you don't.

If you are concerned about shower connections look on the rough. There are tons of things that can't be verified on a final inspection. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

Forget about my opinions. And sometimes I am silly.

What about the opinions from the NFPA, in the handbook, and the IAEI in the Soares PP that I referenced before?

What are your views on their opinions?

 

[M. D.]

from the 2007 rop . I think bonding at the water heater harkens back to when the water piping system was required to be electrically continuous

5-235 Log #1834 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))

____________________________________________________________

Submitter: Mark T. Rochon, Mark J. Rochon Master Electrician

Recommendation: Revise as follows:
General Combination metal water piping system(s) separated by nonmetallic
water piping system(s) where may become energized installed in or attached to
a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the
grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of
sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used.

Substantiation: Nonmetallic water piping systems are being inserted between
our metal water piping system and today?s code is not recognizing these
changes.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The conditions indicated in the substantiation are already
covered by 250.104(B) where there is not a complete metallic water piping
system.

Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
____________________________________________________________
5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))

____________________________________________________________

Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge

Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized , installed in or
attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.

Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s)
isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves
contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic
water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping
system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of
isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.

Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
____________________________________________________________

​

​

 

[iwire]

Forget about my opinions. And sometimes I am silly.

What about the opinions from the NFPA, in the handbook, and the IAEI in the Soares PP that I referenced before?

What are your views on their opinions?

I have not seen either, but if either of them say that the NEC requires a bonding jumper at all hot water heaters I would say that they are misstating the facts.

The NEC requires metal water piping systems to be bonded no more no less. If the hot and cold water piping systems are both metal but already bonded by virtue of mixing valves etc I do not have to bond it again. Now you might say the mixing valves are not listed for bonding, well neither are any of the other components in the piping system.

I also find this much to do about nothing considering the CMPs stance about water pipe bonding.

 

[electricmanscott]

Forget about my opinions. And sometimes I am silly.

What about the opinions from the NFPA, in the handbook, and the IAEI in the Soares PP that I referenced before?

What are your views on their opinions?

First, you tell me how you handle threaded gas piping.

The only thing I see that you've made a reference to is the handbook commentary so I'll address that. The other stuff requires too much searching.

Where it can not be reasonably concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical connections, an electrical bonding jumper is required to assure this connection is made.

I put my meter between the hot and cold, I read continuity. No Jumper
I look under a sink and see metal hot and cold piping connected to a metal faucet. No jumper
I look at the metallic shower valve. No jumper
I look at the metallic washing machine valve. No jumper

Chances are you will have at least one of the items listed above and probably several. All lead to a reasonable conclusion that the pipes are realiably bonded.

I'll say it again. There is no blanket requirement in the NEC to install a bonding jumper between hot and cold water piping. In certain rare circumstances you may have to but ONLY under those circumstances. Those cicumstances are unlikely to occur.
Actually it is really one circumstance.

 

[jxofaltrds]

"I think bonding at the water heater harkens back to when the water piping system was required to be electrically continuous"

I hate to read anything into someone else's post. Are you saying that it should or should not be continuous?

 

[electricmanscott]

I also find this much to do about nothing considering the CMPs stance about water pipe bonding.

It is much ado about nothing. However, If you had someone like, oh say, Mike come in for an inspection and he wouldn't pass the job because there was no (noyt required) bonding jumper then it becomes a problem.

It's happened to me and it is beyond frustrating.

 

[jxofaltrds]

We will continue to disagree.

Using your logic the gasline is bonded because it is connected to the hot water tank and the tank is connected to the waterlines.

 

[electricmanscott]

We will continue to disagree.

Using your logic the gasline is bonded because it is connected to the hot water tank and the tank is connected to the waterlines.

Oh no, not that easy! We are talking about YOU here.

Your words....Teflon tape on fittings. Pipe dope.

If they are insulators on water piping then they must be the same on gas piping so how do you handle bonding that piping, and every elbow, coupling, nipple, and peice of pipe?

 

[M. D.]

"I think bonding at the water heater harkens back to when the water piping system was required to be electrically continuous"

I hate to read anything into someone else's post. Are you saying that it should or should not be continuous?

I'm saying that requirement went by the way side ,.. in today's world it is almost impossible to expect that a piping system will remain electrically continuous from one given point to the next... so they have seemed to settle on 5' of it ,... heck they don't even expect that to remain metal ,hence the supplemental electrode

 

[romeo]

Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

Should the copper plumbing be grounded in a residential situation where the main water pipe comes in plastic. ? Lets say the main water comes in plastic, it then changes over to copper right after entering the dwelling and its a new house, for the service 2 grounds were installed, with less than 25ohms of resistance. Should the copper plumbing be grounded so it can never become energized?

The 2 ground rods are the grounding electrode system, and serve no purpose for bonding the interior water system. I expect that the ges was tested to document 25ohms,the fact that 2 rods were installed does not guarantee that, but meets the requirements of the NEC.

Yes all interior piping systems must be bonded,