Location of receptacles for gas ranges

[charlie b]

"And Another Thing" (Book six the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" trilogy): My fridge is on wheels. It has a sort of a parking brake, a rubber piece held to the floor by a screw that I have to loosten, in order to roll it. But it does roll easily, even when full of food. So I consider the plug behind it to be "accessible" as well.

 

[charlie b]

Charlie the logical conclusion is that the CMP felt an electric range is to much to move to reach the disconnecting means. To say that somehow changes when the appliance is primarily gas seems like a long stretch to me.

The difference is that the plug for an electric range is larger, heavier, and less easy to insert and remove than the plug for a gas range. It also has higher voltage rating. So I don't call it a stretch.

If it was hardwired would you locate a disconnecting switch behind it?

If my gas range were hardwired, then I would take advantage of 422.31(A), which allows me to use the circuit breaker as the disconnecting means, even if it were not within sight (which it is) and not lockable (which it is not).

 

[iwire]

Thanks for the code articles. But I have to take issue with you on this one, Bob. It says "accessible," not "readily accessible." The definition of "accessible" speaks of being closed in by the structure, not of moving an appliance out of the way.

Your looking at the wrong 'accessible'.

 

[iwire]

The difference is that the plug for an electric range is larger, heavier, and less easy to insert and remove than the plug for a gas range.

If my gas range were hardwired, then I would take advantage of 422.31(A), which allows me to use the circuit breaker as the disconnecting means, even if it were not within sight (which it is) and not lockable (which it is not).

Nice job avoiding the real question.:grin::roll:

 

[charlie b]

Your looking at the wrong 'accessible'.

I am not. We are talking about the accessibility of a wiring method (i.e., a plug and cord connection), not the accessibility of a piece of equipment (i.e., the range)

 

[iwire]

I am not. We are talking about the accessibility of a wiring method (i.e., a plug and cord connection), not the accessibility of a piece of equipment (i.e., the range)

IMO receptacles and plugs are equipment not wiring methods.

Wiring methods are covered in Chapter 3, plugs and receptacles are covered in Chapter 4 Equipment for General Use.

 

[M. D.]

Something to chew on....
From the 2007 rop

_______________________________________________________________

17-23 Log #1501 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Part
(422.33(A) and (B))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC
Recommendation: Revise last sentence of (A):
Where the separable connector or plug and receptacle are not readily
accessible...(remainder unchanged).
In (B), delete ?household? or delete (B).
Substantiation: Edit. Cord connectors, receptacles, and plugs cannot be ?not
accessible? (closed in by the building finish) through they may be not ?readily?
accessible. There is no apparent reason (B) should be limited to household
ranges; subsection (A) appears to be inclusive of commercial ranges.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Part
Revise the last sentence of 422.33(A) as follows:
Where the separable connector or plug and receptacle are not readily
accessible...(remainder unchanged).
Panel Statement: The panel accepts the first part of the submitter?s
recommendation.
The panel rejects the change or deletion of 422.33(B) because there are
significant differences between household and commercial ranges.
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 14

from the 2007 ROC

________________________________________________________
17-13 Log #1983 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept
(422.33(A))
________________________________________________________
Submitter: Noel Williams, Herriman, UT
Comment on Proposal No: 17-23
Recommendation: This Proposal should have been Rejected.

Substantiation: The proposal said it was only editorial in nature (?Edit?), but
it actually results in a significant and onerous change. This rule will require
the receptacle for a refrigerator to be located in a space other than behind the
refrigerator. Since a refrigerator in most existing installations and in common
practice usually has to be pulled out a bit to access its receptacle outlet, the
outlet is not readily accessible and another disconnect would be required.
Similarly, a receptacle for a dishwasher or range that is accessible by pulling
the appliance out from the wall would no longer qualify as a disconnect for
that appliance. No substantiation was provided for these drastic changes in the
requirements for appliance disconnects.
The substantiation is also incorrect in stating that a receptacle ?cannot be
? not accessible? (closed in by building finish)...?. This statement is based
on the definition of accessible as applied to wiring methods. Receptacles
are not ?wiring methods? and are not covered by Chapter 3, they are a type
of ?Equipment for General Use? covered by Chapter 4. The definition of
accessible that should be applied to receptacles is Accessible (as applied
to equipment): ?Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors,
elevation, or other effective means.?
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13
Ballot Not Returned: 1 Gill, C.

 

[charlie b]

Bob, I see that you didn?t understand my distinguishing the more severe rule for an electric range from the less severe rule for a gas range by describing the difference in plug types. I understand the need for a more severe rule. To unplug an electric range requires the ability to get a clean grip on the plug, and have a clear path for pulling. Removing a drawer at the base would give you that ability. But to remove a standard 120 volt plug, all you have to do is swat at it with a wooden spoon. OK. Not a recommended method. But the point is that it doesn?t take any work. I can move my range about 12 inches away from the wall, reach behind it, and unplug it, without even a single grunt. If it were an electric range?s plug, I would have to have a better way to get at it.

 

[iwire]

Bob, I see that you didn?t understand my distinguishing the more severe rule for an electric range from the less severe rule for a gas range by describing the difference in plug types. I understand the need for a more severe rule. To unplug an electric range requires the ability to get a clean grip on the plug, and have a clear path for pulling. Removing a drawer at the base would give you that ability. But to remove a standard 120 volt plug, all you have to do is swat at it with a wooden spoon. OK. Not a recommended method. But the point is that it doesn?t take any work. I can move my range about 12 inches away from the wall, reach behind it, and unplug it, without even a single grunt. If it were an electric range?s plug, I would have to have a better way to get at it.

OK we have thrown Charlie's rule out the window and will now just make stuff up as we go.

 

[charlie b]

IMO receptacles and plugs are equipment not wiring methods.

OK. I see the CMP sees it the same way.

But a stove or a fridge does not guard or lock the space behind it. And as to "admitting close approach," I have stood behind the fridge, and I have stood behind the range, and I did not break a sweat to get there. It is not like the rules of 110.26. I am not forbidden to have anything stored in front of a receptacle outlet.

 

[charlie b]

OK we have thrown Charlie's rule out the window and will now just make stuff up as we go.

Not at all. I am merely reporting (1) The fact that there is a difference between the rules for an electric range and the rules for a gas range, and (2) The opinion that I find the difference understandable.

 

[iwire]

OK. I see the CMP sees it the same way.

But a stove or a fridge does not guard or lock the space behind it. And as to "admitting close approach," I have stood behind the fridge, and I have stood behind the range, and I did not break a sweat to get there. It is not like the rules of 110.26. I am not forbidden to have anything stored in front of a receptacle outlet.

Which brings us full circle How big does something have to be before I can't block the disconnecting means with it?

I just see this area of the code lacking with clear direction.

If we even attempt to bring 110.26 into it then all heck will break loose.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I have no sails.:grin:

Just talking code here, there are a lot of things done all the time that do in fact violate the NEC.



If it was hardwired with flex would you locate a disconnecting switch behind it?

No wind bt a lot of hot air today!
bob in post # 19 you agreed ( I think that is what you meant) with the OP as he was speaking of a gas range. Then in post #51 you shot the guy down. "IMO you have a violation"
Now you are trying to tell all of us that the outlet behind the fridge is a problem.
Did you get enough sleep last night?

 

[charlie b]

I just see this area of the code lacking with clear direction.

Agreed.

Which brings us full circle: How big does something have to be before I can't block the disconnecting means with it?

I think that the code does not answer that question, and I suspect you think the same. My answer, from a practical (but certainly not enforceable, nor even useful as an inspection criterion) perspective, is that if one person of average strength and fitness can move the item without assistance and without undue risk of a muscle sprain, then the plug behind it can be considered ?accessible.?

BTW, my range had been stored in the garage, until we were able to arrange for a plumber to install the gas line. When I moved the range into the kitchen, I placed one of those self-stick circular furniture pads (sticky on one side, carpet material on the other) under each leg. So now, sliding the range into the middle of the kitchen and back is a breeze. Anyone interested can feel free to borrow (steal) this idea, if you wish.

 

[iwire]

No wind bt a lot of hot air today!

Sorry if thats a problem for you. :roll:

bob in post # 19 you agreed ( I think that is what you meant) with the OP as he was speaking of a gas range.

Yes he is speaking of a gas range and yes I originally thought 422.33(B) applied to all ranges. It was pointed out that section only applies to electric ranges. I stand duly corrected on that issue, I was wrong.

Then in post #51 you shot the guy down. "IMO you have a violation"

And I still feel that way per the words used in the book.

Now you are trying to tell all of us that the outlet behind the fridge is a problem.

No, I have never said having an outlet behind anything is a violation. What I have said, and I still maintain is that it is a violation to have the required disconnecting means for equipment behind that equipment.

Did you get enough sleep last night?

Plenty, thanks for asking.

 

[electricmanscott]

Vicodin+Bob= Feisty Bob :grin:

I'm of the pull the stove out and the receptacle and unplug it for disconnecting means camp.

 

[M. D.]

the same guy was shot down in 2004 this is from the ROC

Submitter: Dan Leaf Rancho Santa Margarita, CA

Comment on Proposal No: 17-25

Recommendation: Accept the proposal.

Substantiation: The first sentence in (A) states an accessible connector or
plug/receptacle (per Article 100 “capable of being removed or exposed...not
closed in by a structure or finished of the building”) shall be permitted. The
second sentence states “where...not accessible (closed in by the structure or fin-
ish of the building)”. The wording infers that separable connectors and plugs/
receptacles means of connections are permitted to be closed in by the structure
or finish of the building.
Receptacle boxes and cords are not permitted to be concealed (not accessible)
by 314.29 and 400.8, though they may be accessible but not readily accessible.
The panel reference to 422.16(B) is not accurate. Cord and plug/receptacle
connections for disposers, dishwashers, compactors are normally located under
a sink which has readily accessible space. Where the cord and plug/receptacle
are not readily accessible (such as within the space for a wall mounted oven)
an additional disconnect means is not required. A disconnect in accordance
with 422.31 is required unless the oven has unit switches per 422.24 which is
doubtful since ungrounded conductors to clock timers are not disconnected by
unit switches.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: Plugs and receptacles are not considered to be readily
accessible (capable of being reached quickly for operation without removing
the appliance) but are accessible (when the appliance is removed from its loca-
tion). The suggested change would require an additional disconnecting means
for these appliances.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11

 

[iwire]

the same guy was shot down in 2004 this is from the ROC

So based on this ...

but are accessible (when the appliance is removed from its loca-
tion). The suggested change would require an additional disconnecting means
for these appliances.

I can now locate any disconnecting means behind any 'appliance'.

Cool. :roll:

 

[M. D.]

and again in 2001

20- 11 - (422-32(a)): Reject
SUBMITTER: Dan Leaf, Palmdale, CA

RECOMMENDATION: Revise second sentence:

Where the separable connector or plug and receptacle are
rendered
not
readily
accessible
by stationary appliances,
cord-
and plug-connected appliances shall be provided with
disconnecting means in accordance with Sections 422-31 or
422-33.

SUBSTANTIATION: The two definitions of accessible in
Article 100 do not appear applicable to plug/receptacles of this
section. Cords are not permitted by Section 400-8 to be behind
building walls or finish nor are outlet boxes for receptacles or
cord connection, by Section 370-29, and the appliances of this
section don?t fit the description of building in Article 100.
Section 550-8(d) Exception No. 2 indicates appliances
(obstacles) may render receptacles not ?readily? accessible.
Section 422-33 seems to be an appropriate alternative.

PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: The submitter has not provided
sufficient substantiation for this proposal.

NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 12
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 10
NEGATIVE: 1
NOT RETURNED: 1 Ryan
EXPLANATION OF NEGATIVE:
EGAN: An appliance disconnecting means is normally plug
and cord as per manufacturer's specifications. The question is
accessibility. The disconnecting means is arrived at only after
the removal of panels, panel hardware, or stationary appliance
while still energized.

 

[iwire]

the same guy was shot down in 2004 this is from the ROC

and again in 2001

M.D. Just a thanks for all the on target links and documents you always post in all types of threads.