Grounding to the Waterpipe

[Energy-Miser]

Doing a 200 amp heavy up, installing two ground rods for it, connecting with #4 bare. Would this suffice, if the main water shut off was all the way at the other end of the house, and not accesible from the panel without tearing the house up? E/M.

 

[augie47]

Is the water line an electrode (metal pipe in contact with the ground 10 ft or more) or just an interior metallic water system (with PVC underground) ?

 

[chevyx92]

Doing a 200 amp heavy up, installing two ground rods for it, connecting with #4 bare. Would this suffice, if the main water shut off was all the way at the other end of the house, and not accesible from the panel without tearing the house up? E/M.

If its a copper waterline and its there then you MUST bond it.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Is the water line an electrode (metal pipe in contact with the ground 10 ft or more) or just an interior metallic water system (with PVC underground) ?

I don't know that at this point. But for the sake of argument, let's say it is PVC, with metal interior. What is the implication of that?

 

[Energy-Miser]

If its a copper waterline and its there then you MUST bond it.

I am not sure where it comes in, but if it does at the other end of the house, it would be nearly impossible to get to it. Code does not make any exceptions for existing installations?

 

[rwreuter]

Doing a 200 amp heavy up, installing two ground rods for it, connecting with #4 bare. Would this suffice, if the main water shut off was all the way at the other end of the house, and not accesible from the panel without tearing the house up? E/M.

To answer your question. NO, it is not, if that water pipe has at least 10' of copper in the ground you must "BOND" to it regardless of the location. If the location is in a wall or the garage you must place a mud ring over it so that is is (some type) accessable...(one of those accessables, LOL). At trim time you will place blank over it.

I feel you pain and I have had to do it many times and it sucs. Believe it or not it is worse when you have a 320amp (400amp as some would call it) service and you have to run two of them.

 

[augie47]

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, bonding to an interior water line can be accomplished at any point on the water system, so you may have a location more convenient than the water entry point. IF the water is an electrode (has underground metallic) then you must bond within 5 ft of the water entrance.,

 

[rwreuter]

I don't know that at this point. But for the sake of argument, let's say it is PVC, with metal interior. What is the implication of that?

if there is not enough copper in the ground then you don't have to do it. i have wired houses where they didn't have enough in the ground and we didn't have to do it. the problem is with the inspector, you have to convince him or prove to him somehow that it doesn't exist.

 

[rwreuter]

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, bonding to an interior water line can be accomplished at any point on the water system, so you may have a location more convenient than the water entry point. IF the water is an electrode (has underground metallic) then you must bond within 5 ft of the water entrance.,

From the way he is asking the question, I think that is what he is getting at.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, bonding to an interior water line can be accomplished at any point on the water system, so you may have a location more convenient than the water entry point. IF the water is an electrode (has underground metallic) then you must bond within 5 ft of the water entrance.,

Seems reasonable. I have to check and see if it comes in as copper or plastice. Thanks .

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I think you best find a way to bond it. Maybe go around the outside.

 

[rwreuter]

that creates another issue. if i remember correctly,the bond wire only needs to be #6, if he goes outside then he has to change the size of the wire because #6 isn't rated to be in areas suspectable to damage.

he will have to upsize it to #4.

correct me if i am wrong.

 

[Energy-Miser]

if there is not enough copper in the ground then you don't have to do it. i have wired houses where they didn't have enough in the ground and we didn't have to do it. the problem is with the inspector, you have to convince him or prove to him somehow that it doesn't exist.

Ok, here is the deal with the whole thing. The old panel had grounding wire ran to copper pipe in a laundry closet. I left it there when I did the heavy up. Inspector came and called me and said that the screw on the clamp was loose (which I had not noticed). Well this says to me that this location is acceptable to the AHJ. Fair enough, I went back to tighten the screw, when the HO said no, you will need to find where the shut off is and clamp to pipe near there. I have not since had a chance to talk to the inspector. I am just trying to see what the code is, etc. so that I can plan a proper course of action to conclude this job. E/M.

 

[Energy-Miser]

I think you best find a way to bond it. Maybe go around the outside.

It is bonded to pipe in a laundry closet, except we are not sure if this is the place where the pipe enters the house or not.

 

[Energy-Miser]

that creates another issue. if i remember correctly,the bond wire only needs to be #6, if he goes outside then he has to change the size of the wire because #6 isn't rated to be in areas suspectable to damage.

he will have to upsize it to #4.

correct me if i am wrong.

That sounds right. I am not worried about using #4, as long as it is allowed to be run outside.

 

[rwreuter]

what reason does the home owner have to run it to the point of entry? if the home owner wants it there and it is not code or the ahj says it is fine because it is a remodel and he isn't going to make you run it to the point of entry then, in my opinion he will have to pay extra for that. that wasn't included in the bid and now it it t&m (time and materials).

aside from the ahj, i don't remember if when you change the service you are to verify that all things connected to it are to be of code. i think they are but i am not sure.

if they are then you have to do it. why? if something happens you will be liable. what could happen? if it is in the closet and not within the proper distance and a water pipe is disconnected the rest of plumbing will not be bonded and a serious issue could arise.

many other trades are more benign than ours, if we screw up something people can die. that is one reason our ceu's require a bonding/grounding class. bonding/grounding are not always straight forward.

 

[iwire]

Here is how I see it.

Short of digging up the yard there is no way to verify if it is or is not an electrode, that being the case I would bond the interior piping and that can be done anywhere.

 

[e57]

Didn't we have this exact same one a few weeks ago????

IMO if you look at the water meter out at the street and the pipe inside - and both are copper - and it's an older install - one could assume it's copper. And need to be treated as an electrode. Leaving you to take it through, over, under or around the house...

 

[Energy-Miser]

Didn't we have this exact same one a few weeks ago????

IMO if you look at the water meter out at the street and the pipe inside - and both are copper - and it's an older install - one could assume it's copper. And need to be treated as an electrode. Leaving you to take it through, over, under or around the house...

It wasn't my post, haven't seen it. I have not seen the meter, there was a flush plastic covering, the Ho said the meter was there (apparenlty under this cover?). Also, if taken #4 outside and around the house, how deep should it be burried?

 

[Energy-Miser]

what reason does the home owner have to run it to the point of entry? if the home owner wants it there and it is not code or the ahj says it is fine because it is a remodel and he isn't going to make you run it to the point of entry then, in my opinion he will have to pay extra for that. that wasn't included in the bid and now it it t&m (time and materials).

aside from the ahj, i don't remember if when you change the service you are to verify that all things connected to it are to be of code. i think they are but i am not sure.

if they are then you have to do it. why? if something happens you will be liable. what could happen? if it is in the closet and not within the proper distance and a water pipe is disconnected the rest of plumbing will not be bonded and a serious issue could arise.

many other trades are more benign than ours, if we screw up something people can die. that is one reason our ceu's require a bonding/grounding class. bonding/grounding are not always straight forward.

I don't think the inspector has a problem with it, although I will thoroughly discuss this with him, next chance I have. The HO seems to have heard something about a shut off valve, and just keeps repeating it.