Home inspections
- Thread starter cschmid
- Start date
- Status
prh1700
Member
- Location
- edgewater, md
I actually took a year long course on becoming a home inspector as back up in case something was to happen and I could not work in the trade anymore. There is a lot to become certified and keep the certification, including an appreticeship. I know a lot of states don't require a certification, which is scary, which is why everybody should look for it. Much like looking for the licensed electrician. The HI cannot suggest repairs, only to have a qualified and licensed tradesman to check systems if he feels there is something wrong, such as piggybacked breakers, wrong wires sizes on breakers, leaky pipes, cracks in the foundations, etc....They are not allowed to recomend any company to perform these services. If they do, phone calls should be made!!
charlietuna
Senior Member
pfalcon,
Qoute: "Sorry Charlie, but you're actually a point behind. A car dealership is a professional organization that should render professional advice. An HI is a methodical problem flagger that sends you to a professional to get advice."
You put your foot in your mouth with this statement.
Webster's Dictionary
Methodical: "habitually following a method"
I find absolutely no difference in an "Auto Repair Shop" business and the "Home Inspection" business. The customer is there for "professional advice" in either case. All the customers are not construction tradesmen like us here on the forum. And it seems there are many reading this subject that can't understand or how to put yourself in the shoes of the single mom,attorney,old widow or taxi driver who knows nothing about aluminum wire or cares to learn. The same goes for the brakes on their car! Or maybe you can justify creating a new trade called "Brake Inspector"! Now the custormer can bring his car to the "BRAKE INSPECTOR" for say $50. bucks. The Brake Inspector provides a report - if necessary the customer can take his car to the "Repair Shop" for a second opinion. This will also help out on our present unemployment problems !
The rub comes from unreliable information provided by TOO MANY "Home Inspectors" over the years. And your wording describing the HI above is part of the problem -- "habitually following a method" or "RUBBER STAMPING" the report. Resole suggested a webb page concerning FPE and Zinsco equipment. If you take the time to read it(?) you can see how these false rumors end up on HI's reports. Another large industry tied on to this issue are the schools that train "HOME INSPECTORS" . This webb page is one of them. Guys there are millions and millions of homes across our country that have aluminum wire used in their services, and to raise a red flag to a "NON-TRADESPERSON" that their house is unsafe is wrong! It's a reflection on their entire industry. It's not that all HI's are bad or doing wrong purposely, they are picking up what they have been taught and running with it. Using an electrical contractor to inspect a home is too expensive and if the economy is normal a homeowner would have a hard time find one to do it. We all know how it feels to have a job inspection "RED TAGGED" only to find out the inspector made a mistake! But we are protected by our own education, the customers of the average HI isn't !
Qoute: "Sorry Charlie, but you're actually a point behind. A car dealership is a professional organization that should render professional advice. An HI is a methodical problem flagger that sends you to a professional to get advice."
You put your foot in your mouth with this statement.
Webster's Dictionary
Methodical: "habitually following a method"
I find absolutely no difference in an "Auto Repair Shop" business and the "Home Inspection" business. The customer is there for "professional advice" in either case. All the customers are not construction tradesmen like us here on the forum. And it seems there are many reading this subject that can't understand or how to put yourself in the shoes of the single mom,attorney,old widow or taxi driver who knows nothing about aluminum wire or cares to learn. The same goes for the brakes on their car! Or maybe you can justify creating a new trade called "Brake Inspector"! Now the custormer can bring his car to the "BRAKE INSPECTOR" for say $50. bucks. The Brake Inspector provides a report - if necessary the customer can take his car to the "Repair Shop" for a second opinion. This will also help out on our present unemployment problems !
The rub comes from unreliable information provided by TOO MANY "Home Inspectors" over the years. And your wording describing the HI above is part of the problem -- "habitually following a method" or "RUBBER STAMPING" the report. Resole suggested a webb page concerning FPE and Zinsco equipment. If you take the time to read it(?) you can see how these false rumors end up on HI's reports. Another large industry tied on to this issue are the schools that train "HOME INSPECTORS" . This webb page is one of them. Guys there are millions and millions of homes across our country that have aluminum wire used in their services, and to raise a red flag to a "NON-TRADESPERSON" that their house is unsafe is wrong! It's a reflection on their entire industry. It's not that all HI's are bad or doing wrong purposely, they are picking up what they have been taught and running with it. Using an electrical contractor to inspect a home is too expensive and if the economy is normal a homeowner would have a hard time find one to do it. We all know how it feels to have a job inspection "RED TAGGED" only to find out the inspector made a mistake! But we are protected by our own education, the customers of the average HI isn't !
- Location
- Massachusetts
Man I have never seen so much whining and I have kids. :grin:
To me it all sounds like sour grapes, get on with you're lives.
To me it all sounds like sour grapes, get on with you're lives.
megloff11x
Senior Member
As with all things, caveat emptor.
People whine about violence, bad language and r-rated nudity and faux sex, but I want to block the ^&%*^$%^*$%^*# home improvement channels because every time Debbie watches it we need granite counter tops in the kitchen....
I used a home inspector when I bought a home but I got references first. He was mostly right and missed very little. What was missed was minor. They're not just electrical but also structure, plumbing, roofing, insulation, etc.
I don't think standards or licensing will block the inept.
You're making a big investment. Do some research and get competent help.
Matt
People whine about violence, bad language and r-rated nudity and faux sex, but I want to block the ^&%*^$%^*$%^*# home improvement channels because every time Debbie watches it we need granite counter tops in the kitchen....
I used a home inspector when I bought a home but I got references first. He was mostly right and missed very little. What was missed was minor. They're not just electrical but also structure, plumbing, roofing, insulation, etc.
I don't think standards or licensing will block the inept.
You're making a big investment. Do some research and get competent help.
Matt
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
Eschmid: Talking trash about home inspectors is tantamount to inspectors dissing electricians: a zero-sum activity at best. Since you do not know all home inspectors it is a bit of a leap for you to judge them all based solely upon your limited experiences.
I won't belabor the point or attempt to educate you where others have falied, but will simply leave you to bask in the unbreachable serenity of your ignoarance.
My goss another HOme Inspector??? I am not talking trash..I have asked the same question repeatedly and electricmanscott atleast said he could tell me what was not elctrical work..I have ask what constitutes electrical work? can you tell me?? Ohsa says you have to be qualified to be in a live panel..Tell me how are you qualified..I have had training..
Pfalcon: Indeed, and he then defers to a licensed electrician who benefits from the deferral. So what are the Sparkys bitching about here? Too much business sent their way?
Wow I stand nothing to benefit and more to lose..I do no residential so why should I care??Yet HI inspections are not standard like the NEC is.
A year course man only couple weekends here needed..
Man I have never seen so much whining and I have kids. :grin:
To me it all sounds like sour grapes, get on with you're lives.
Bob I am not whininig and I am going to ask you again.. What constitutes electrical work? when is a licensed electricain necessary? Please tell me give me your insight..
Again I can use handy manyy examples, I can use Home inspector examples and the point still remians what do you as electricains classify as licensed electrical work??
You're showing your age :grin:
R-rating is now violence and cussing. Nudity moved to NC-17 and NC-13.
So now adultry is more restricted than murder.
Csmid: Yes, electrical work is effort expended installing or repairing electrical installations.
Csmid: OSHA does not apply to single-family residential construction - look it up for yourself. How I qualify to inspect what Sparkys install is through licensing in my state which REQUIRES the panel cover to be removed and by way of an ICC Residential Electrical Inspector certificate.
Csmid: I would hate to be on the receiving end of your commercial "knowledge". The NEC is a model code and not a licensing or certification agency. They do not even have an exam for one to pass like the ICC and state HI agencies.
It seems to me that your problem, and that of your peers who feel the same as you, is that you somehow do not feel that anyone else on this Earth knows as much as you do about anything. Imbued Faux Engineer Syndrome (IFES) is a common disease in your trade. They make medicine for that, you know.
I expect the Auto Repair Shop to actually understand problems in-depth enough to fix them. I only expect the HI to recognize the worst of problems and at that to periodically make a mistake. That's enough difference for me to call the car shop professional and not the HI.
As to not being able to put myself in someone's shoes - ROFLMAO
My old widow mother-in-law is a full-time occupation keeping her life-style intact. Your comment IMO implies that HIs are innately evil like used-car salespeople or politicians. Just because someone is carrying a journeyman card in his pocket doesn't make him any more or any less honest than the typical HI or politician. (used-car salespeople are really evil though :grin
. Either you have the mind set to deal or you don't. And thems that don't need to recruit a friend, in-law, relative, associate, or what-not to help them when they need it.You aren't going to solve the widow problem by jacking the HI rate from $300 to $3000. Which is exactly what has to happen to get a guy licensed in all the things that need inspecting. Because the old widow still won't understand what the HI is saying. And she'll still end up paying for stuff she doesn't need when she gets a bad/greedy HI. Just like she agrees to pay for electrical work she doesn't need when she gets a bad/greedy electrician.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
Csmid: Yes, electrical work is effort expended installing or repairing electrical installations.
I can live with that answer..another question though what constitutes planing & design?
Csmid: OSHA does not apply to single-family residential construction - look it up for yourself. How I qualify to inspect what Sparkys install is through licensing in my state which REQUIRES the panel cover to be removed and by way of an ICC Residential Electrical Inspector certificate.
Electrical safty does applie to all live parts of an energized ciruit i do not remember what the limit is but I believe it is 50 volts..But OSHA only comes into play when an accident occurs normally..
Csmid: I would hate to be on the receiving end of your commercial "knowledge".
The more I learn the less I acually realize I know.
The NEC is a model code and not a licensing or certification agency. They do not even have an exam for one to pass like the ICC and state HI agencies.
Now You are getting to what I am after..So there are fixed in place rules..Because Home Inspectors are inspecting safty item normally and not structural..But I do have some questions on some specifics for you Home Inspectors..Just for the record as type is normally missinterprweted anyway I am in no way upset or whinning..
It seems to me that your problem, and that of your peers who feel the same as you, is that you somehow do not feel that anyone else on this Earth knows as much as you do about anything.
that is very bold especially when I do not feel that way..
Imbued Faux Engineer Syndrome (IFES) is a common disease in your trade. They make medicine for that, you know.
Yes sir motorcycles, miller lite (when I am not driving) and fishing..I am addicted
TCN
Member
I am an HI
I am an HI
I am a Real Estate Inspector (commercial and residential), a Master Electrician, an ICC certified Municipal Inspector in every trade. Among the resources for my business are a Master Plumber, HVAC Specialist, and a Carpenter/ Framer. These all are occasional consultants for the DIY Consulting side of the business. They are there for anything I may have question about on an inspection as well.
I wish we had more oversight (even licensing) for the Inspectors here. I'm not impressed with most of them. In fact I get quite frustrated because the innocent victim of these so-called experts are, of course, the one who admitted not knowing anything and has put all their trust and money into this supposed reliable Inspector.
Here, as with many municipalities across the country, however, you don't even have to have worked in the trade to inspect for the Building Departments. CRAZY!! There are soooo many things that cannot be readily seen with a HI. A simple class or two does not give one the experience needed to spot potentials and advise clients. I have a lot of issues with the current system. As you know, one makes all look bad. I really like what it looks like MA and a few others have adopted.
Oh, and for those of you who cringed at DIY consulting because we'd rather just see DIY with electrical especially go away, I share your sentiment. But, since it is not going away, at least I can help them not get someone killed.
I am an HI
I am a Real Estate Inspector (commercial and residential), a Master Electrician, an ICC certified Municipal Inspector in every trade. Among the resources for my business are a Master Plumber, HVAC Specialist, and a Carpenter/ Framer. These all are occasional consultants for the DIY Consulting side of the business. They are there for anything I may have question about on an inspection as well.
I wish we had more oversight (even licensing) for the Inspectors here. I'm not impressed with most of them. In fact I get quite frustrated because the innocent victim of these so-called experts are, of course, the one who admitted not knowing anything and has put all their trust and money into this supposed reliable Inspector.
Here, as with many municipalities across the country, however, you don't even have to have worked in the trade to inspect for the Building Departments. CRAZY!! There are soooo many things that cannot be readily seen with a HI. A simple class or two does not give one the experience needed to spot potentials and advise clients. I have a lot of issues with the current system. As you know, one makes all look bad. I really like what it looks like MA and a few others have adopted.
Oh, and for those of you who cringed at DIY consulting because we'd rather just see DIY with electrical especially go away, I share your sentiment. But, since it is not going away, at least I can help them not get someone killed.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
Thank You and I am after trying to get my state to adopt more stringent rules regarding HI's. It has nothing to do with more work or any thing like that it has to do with they are not qualified for alot of what they are doing..
So more questions...
the Hi's that have answerd this post have state they are required to get in the attic and on the roof andinside the electrical panel can you post links for me to see these regulation please..
I am still waiting to read where an licensed electricain is needed..
So if you use a ideal ciruit test ( I do not have my in fornt of me but the one that measures the resistance and lets you know the voltage drop of circuit) and you use this reading to give an assessment of the elctrical system of a home to a prespective buyer..What is the classification of that type of work and what qualifications do you need to do this??
John Sullivan
Member
- Location
- Las Vegas Nevada
Home Inspectors
Home Inspectors
I have been a licensed property inspector in Las Vegas since 1997, with over 3000 residential and commercial inspections. Our functions as licensed home inspectors is perform visual & operational inspections. I feel that my professional experience allows me to inspect the house electrical with referance the main panel, double wired breakers, hot spots, corrosion, bare wires, improper sized breakers for the size wiring, rusted panels, missing dead fronts and on and on. Pool equipment bonding, damaged fixtures inoperable or improperly wired GFCIs. Re-calls and on and on. No I'm not a licensed electrician but my findings have probably saved lives and have given several electricians busnesss they may not have gotten if I hadn't inspected these properties. If you don't care for property insepectors thats fine but like electricians some of us know what we're doing and some don't.
Home Inspectors
I have been a licensed property inspector in Las Vegas since 1997, with over 3000 residential and commercial inspections. Our functions as licensed home inspectors is perform visual & operational inspections. I feel that my professional experience allows me to inspect the house electrical with referance the main panel, double wired breakers, hot spots, corrosion, bare wires, improper sized breakers for the size wiring, rusted panels, missing dead fronts and on and on. Pool equipment bonding, damaged fixtures inoperable or improperly wired GFCIs. Re-calls and on and on. No I'm not a licensed electrician but my findings have probably saved lives and have given several electricians busnesss they may not have gotten if I hadn't inspected these properties. If you don't care for property insepectors thats fine but like electricians some of us know what we're doing and some don't.
John, I realy hate to add fuel to this fire but, can you elaborate on these items?
Thanks
Roger
Cshmid: http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=5&ti=22&pt=23&ch=535&sch=R&rl=Y
Cshmid: From that set of regs: "A real estate inspection is a limited visual survey and basic operation of the systems and components of a building using normal controls and does not require the use of specialized tools or procedures. The purpose of the inspection is to provide the client with information regarding the general condition of the residence at the time of inspection."
So then, HIs are generalists, unlike electricians who specialize in their given trade, and are therefore specialists. All HIs refer their clients to specialists for further evaluation of problems visually detected during inspections.
Cshmid: I do not know of any HIs is my area who perform voltage drop measurements. It is beyond the scope of the inspection. That is where your trade comes in.
In response to your earlier questions:
1. "What is planning and designing?" It is self-explanatory, and not something that HIs get involved in unless so qualified.
2. OSHA does not, I repeat does NOT, apply to residential construction. They have no regs written regarding that arena and do not exercise jurisdiction there.
So then, why not drop the bull$hit attempt to defame HIs? What do you stand to gain from belittling other professionals? If I wrote a flame every time I observed bad electrical work performed by licensed electricians I would need a forum of my own.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
Thank You roger I was going to ask..
I do not hate HI's I want a more uniform standard for Home Inspectors and better qualifications..
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
Cshmid: http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=5&ti=22&pt=23&ch=535&sch=R&rl=Y
Cshmid: From that set of regs: "A real estate inspection is a limited visual survey and basic operation of the systems and components of a building using normal controls and does not require the use of specialized tools or procedures. The purpose of the inspection is to provide the client with information regarding the general condition of the residence at the time of inspection."
So then, HIs are generalists, unlike electricians who specialize in their given trade, and are therefore specialists. All HIs refer their clients to specialists for further evaluation of problems visually detected during inspections.
Cshmid: I do not know of any HIs is my area who perform voltage drop measurements. It is beyond the scope of the inspection. That is where your trade comes in.
In response to your earlier questions:
1. "What is planning and designing?" It is self-explanatory, and not something that HIs get involved in unless so qualified.
2. OSHA does not, I repeat does NOT, apply to residential construction. They have no regs written regarding that arena and do not exercise jurisdiction there.
So then, why not drop the bull$hit attempt to defame HIs? What do you stand to gain from belittling other professionals? If I wrote a flame every time I observed bad electrical work performed by licensed electricians I would need a forum of my own.
aaronm again you are answering question I am asking other electricains here..because apparently the questions are not so simple..If you read this post I have used handy manny, HVAC, sheetrock guys and HI's as examples. So if you think I am defaming HI's you have missed the point..I want to know from other electricains what they classify as electrical work?? The question and example I have used are just that..I am with roger and would like some deeper explaination on what you are looking for you have the panel cover off. I am trying to learn some things from you hi's here. I am doing reserch and have stated that a couple of times..
Cshmid: Fair enough. There are a myriad of things to look for behind a panelboard cover. The short list would look like this:
(1) Before the cover comes off - are the breakers labeled? Are there openings in the panel cover? Are all of the cover plate screws in place, and are they the blunt-ended screw supplied by the manufacturer or are they sharp-pointed sheet metal screws installed by the Sparky or happy homeowner? Is there the required service clearance around the panel? Is it installed at a code-compliant height? Is it installed the proper distance from propane tanks? Is it located too close to a gas appliance vent? Etc., etc., ad infinitum . . .
(2) Are any of the breakers overheating - using an infrared thermometer for measurements.
(3) Are there any damaged breakers?
(4) Are there any scorch marks?
(5) Is the panel full of crap like mice nesting material, dead mice, paint, texture, et al.?
(6) Are the conductors sized properly for the breakers to which they are attached?
(7) Are all of the conductors connected to the panel where they enter with NM clamps?
(8) Is there the proper amount of cable insulation extended within the panel?
(9) Are any of the conductors damaged?
(10) If aluminum, are the conductors attached to breakers listed and labeled for aluminum? Are the bare ends coated with anti-oxidant paste?
(11) Are any of the breakers being used to protect more than one circuit? If so, are the breakers listed and labeled for this application? Are they properly sized according to the circuits they protect?
(12) How many conductors are inserted below each lug in the common and ground bus bars?
(13) If this is a subpanel, are the commons and ground segregated?
(14) Is this a POS panelboard like a Federal Pacific Electric Stab Lok or Zinsco. You know the ones I mean, arc welders in a can?
(15) Are breaker handle bridges in place where required?
(16) Are all of the breakers in the panel of the brand or type allowed for installation in the panel?
(17) Are any of the breakers on a UL or manufacturer recall list?
(18) Is the enclosure rusted? If so, what is the origin of the moisture?
(19) Are there any devices in the panel that do not belong, i.e. doorbell transformers, whole house surge protectors, et al.?
I could go on, bu these are what come to mind right now. Gotta run . . . the brisket needs basting . . .
SPARKS40
Member
- Location
- Northern Il
Cshmid: Fair enough. There are a myriad of things to look for behind a panelboard cover. The short list would look like this:
(1) Before the cover comes off - are the breakers labeled? Are there openings in the panel cover? Are all of the cover plate screws in place, and are they the blunt-ended screw supplied by the manufacturer or are they sharp-pointed sheet metal screws installed by the Sparky or happy homeowner? Is there the required service clearance around the panel? Is it installed at a code-compliant height? Is it installed the proper distance from propane tanks? Is it located too close to a gas appliance vent? Etc., etc., ad infinitum . . .Are codes retroactive?? Was it code at the time of the install?? Just wondering.
(2) Are any of the breakers overheating - using an infrared thermometer for measurements. define overheating
(3) Are there any damaged breakers?
(4) Are there any scorch marks?
(5) Is the panel full of crap like mice nesting material, dead mice, paint, texture, et al.? Would that be detrimental to the integrity of the installation? Nothing a shop vac wouldn't fix.
(6) Are the conductors sized properly for the breakers to which they are attached?See #11
(7) Are all of the conductors connected to the panel where they enter with NM clamps?
(8) Is there the proper amount of cable insulation extended within the panel?how much is proper?
(9) Are any of the conductors damaged?
(10) If aluminum, are the conductors attached to breakers listed and labeled for aluminum? Are the bare ends coated with anti-oxidant paste?Are there breakers out there listed for copper only?
(11) Are any of the breakers being used to protect more than one circuit? If so, are the breakers listed and labeled for this application? Are they properly sized according to the circuits they protect?Without tracing circuits, how would you know if the breaker was properly sized? Also, if this is piped, how do you know the wire size is consistent with the breaker size for the entire run? Do you go around opening up J-boxes and/or walls if in cable? My guess would be NO, so how can you put either on an inspection report when it is based on ASSUMPTION?? I've seen "Joe Homeowner" run #14 cuz it's cheaper, but then runs #10 from that last box back to the 30A breaker he had layin' around in the panel.
(12) How many conductors are inserted below each lug in the common and ground bus bars?So let's say you have multiple neutrals under one screw......is it REALLY a selling point, and what do you put in your inspection report regarding this??
(13) If this is a subpanel, are the commons and ground segregated?
(14) Is this a POS panelboard like a Federal Pacific Electric Stab Lok or Zinsco. You know the ones I mean, arc welders in a can?
(15) Are breaker handle bridges in place where required? MWBC's would be one instance, if you can identify them properly. Handle ties or 2-pole breakers were not always used on these. Is it a violation if it was not code at the time of the installation? I don't believe codes are retroactive.
(16) Are all of the breakers in the panel of the brand or type allowed for installation in the panel?What information is this based upon, or is it just an ASSUMPTION if the breaker and panel brands are different?
(17) Are any of the breakers on a UL or manufacturer recall list?Are you pulling breakers to check date codes? How is this determined?
(18) Is the enclosure rusted? If so, what is the origin of the moisture?If i was attached directly to the foundation wall for 40+ years, i'd be a little rusty too.
(19) Are there any devices in the panel that do not belong, i.e. doorbell transformers, whole house surge protectors, et al.?OMG.....TVSS devices don't belong in a panel?
I could go on, bu these are what come to mind right now. Gotta run . . . the brisket needs basting . . .
I wish i could get paid good money to give a report partially based on assumptions, and what's wrong today with something that was done YEARS ago because it doesn't meet CURRENT standards.....
- Location
- Massachusetts
Nothing is wrong with it but a potential buyer should know as much as possible about the home they are thinking of buying.
If I have two 'identical' homes for the same price but I find out one has an electrical system that is more up to date than the other home that could make a diffance in which home I choose.
- Status