210.12

[iwire]

That's exactly what I'm doing. No outltets added

210.12 requires the circuit conductors be protected not just the outlets, this is entirely different than GFCI requirements.

 

[macmikeman]

Even if you do not add outlets, if you install new branch circuit wiring supplying outlets 210.12 required AFCI protection of that new wiring. (IMO)

Bob, (IMO) if you apply Charlie's rule to 210.12 the first sentence clearly states "outlets installed" as the trigger for the requirement of branch circuit arc fault protection. If the single word "installed" was not present your interpretation would be the correct one.

 

[MarkyMarkNC]

In most parts of NC, alterations to existing structures fall under the NC Rehab Code, which has been adopted by most of the jurisdictions here. I have never had to add AFCI protection to any outlet that was existing, even on entire house re-wires.

http://www.ncrehabcode.com/pdf/2009 NC Rehab Code.pdf

In North Carolina, I believe the NC Rehab Code supersedes Bob's opinion on 210.12

 

[cpal]

:roll::roll:

Bob, (IMO) the first sentence clearly states "outlets installed" as the trigger for the requirement .

I would have to disagree with this point of view regarding the language. I am not home and unable to research the rop's roc's for a opinion of intent.

The first sentence as I read it states that "all 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20 - ampere branch circuits.I would suggest that the paragraph is clearly talking about branch circuits in their entirety including the conductors. If the CMP was only concerned with the protection of to devices it might have allowed a AFCI receptacle to be used at the first outlet location without regard to the wiring method. Unfortunately they did not accept those proposals.

 

[iwire]

Bob, (IMO) if you apply Charlie's rule to 210.12 the first sentence clearly states "outlets installed" as the trigger for the requirement of branch circuit arc fault protection. If the single word "installed" was not present your interpretation would be the correct one.

Where are you reading that?

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition: Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). A
device intended to provide protection from the effects of
arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing
and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc
fault is detected.


(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

 

[Buck Parrish]

We just wired a house. We had about 5 circuits in the residential theatre in the basement.
I don't (IMO) think a theatre falls under 210.12(b).
So I did not use AFCI"
I've not had it inspected yet. I'll let you know.

The five circuits
projector ) he wanted dedicated
stereo ) " " " '' ''
room GP outlets
lights

Oh the fifth is a large wine cellar
It's door is off from the theatre.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Buck, the catcher on this is the term similar rooms. I can easily see a home theater room as a room an inspector is going to require AFCI. What we say here means squat, unfortunately, so I suggest calling the AHJ.

FWIW, The wine cellar IMO, would not require afci

 

[Buck Parrish]

Buck, the catcher on this is the term similar rooms. I can easily see a home theater room as a room an inspector is going to require AFCI. What we say here means squat, unfortunately, so I suggest calling the AHJ.

FWIW, The wine cellar IMO, would not require afci

It's Chatam at the GC. I might get away with it out there.
What about the Intercom System, its hard wired but I generally put the alarm on with it. And it plugs in.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It's Chatam at the GC. I might get away with it out there.

Oh I thought we were talking code and not what you can get away with. You may get away with it but you may not also-- GC people are loaded why would you not use a AFCI- they certainly can afford it.

What about the Intercom System, its hard wired but I generally put the alarm on with it. And it plugs in.

Where is the plug for the alarm?

 

[Buck Parrish]

Oh I thought we were talking code and not what you can get away with. You may get away with it but you may not also-- GC people are loaded why would you not use a AFCI- they certainly can afford it.




It's a bid job. They are exspensive. And I don't feel the need for them in a theatre.


Where is the plug for the alarm?

In the hall closet

 

[ishium 80439]

It's definately an AHJ call. In the Denver metro area there are some jurisdictions that want AFCIs anytime a circuit is extended, some that don't require them unless you go back to the panel and some that have not adapted the 2008 provisions regarding AFCIs and are using the '05 requirement (though they have adapted the '08 for everything else).

Consistency rocks!

 

[macmikeman]

Where are you reading that?

Read it again. Use Charley's rule. Every word counts. You highlighted right up to the key word stopped.

How is this? (B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

We have also been down the road on the word installed and the verbage before. It means in the present tense, not ones at the initial installation. Like I said, if they remove that one word I highlited in red then your view would be the correct one. But as it stands, intentions or not, the code is clear on it. Installed...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Buck, I took the liberty to present this question to Ron Chilton, our state electrical inspector because I didn't buy Bob's thinking on it. :grin:

Here is his comment. It may not be spot on per NEC wording but that is the way he sees it.

As long as no new outlets are installed, you could use an approved junction box on the circuit and extend the branch circuit to the relocated or new panelboard without AFCI protection. There is no requirement that AFCI provisions be applied for a service change when no new outlets are installed.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Buck, I took the liberty to present this question to Ron Chilton, our state electrical inspector because I didn't buy Bob's thinking on it. :grin:

Here is his comment. It may not be spot on per NEC wording but that is the way he sees it.

I like that judgement. No 'new' circuits were added.

IMHO it would be no different then replacing a damaged wire.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Buck, I took the liberty to present this question to Ron Chilton, our state electrical inspector because I didn't buy Bob's thinking on it. :grin:

Here is his comment. It may not be spot on per NEC wording but that is the way he sees it.

Thaks, I'll have to print that out.

 

[hotwire1955]

Not required in NJ unless it's an addition, like add a level or change of dwelling foot print

 

[iwire]

Buck, I took the liberty to present this question to Ron Chilton, our state electrical inspector because I didn't buy Bob's thinking on it. :grin:

Here is his comment. It may not be spot on per NEC wording but that is the way he sees it.

I can't help it if he is wrong.:grin:

 

[iwire]

Read it again. Use Charley's rule. Every word counts. You highlighted right up to the key word stopped.

How is this? (B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

We have also been down the road on the word installed and the verbage before. It means in the present tense, not ones at the initial installation. Like I said, if they remove that one word I highlited in red then your view would be the correct one. But as it stands, intentions or not, the code is clear on it. Installed...

Mike, yes all the words count and I was not trying to avoid the word installed.

So ...

I go to a house that is being remolded and because of that an existing home run supplying outlets must be re-routed and that requires adding a new section of NM to do that.

That new section of NM is a in fact branch circuit supplying outlets that are installed in a dwelling unit and that new section requires AFCI protection.

It appears you feel the word 'installed' means the act of providing a new outlet and IMO it is just talking about the location of being in a dwelling unit.

 

[macmikeman]

Mike, yes all the words count and I was not trying to avoid the word installed.

So ...

I go to a house that is being remolded and because of that an existing home run supplying outlets must be re-routed and that requires adding a new section of NM to do that.

That new section of NM is a in fact branch circuit supplying outlets that are installed in a dwelling unit and that new section requires AFCI protection.

It appears you feel the word 'installed' means the act of providing a new outlet and IMO it is just talking about the location of being in a dwelling unit.

If that were the cased they would have just said "supplying outlets in family rooms, living rooms etc....

 

[hurk27]

Read it again. Use Charley's rule. Every word counts. You highlighted right up to the key word stopped.

How is this? (B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

We have also been down the road on the word installed and the verbage before. It means in the present tense, not ones at the initial installation. Like I said, if they remove that one word I highlited in red then your view would be the correct one. But as it stands, intentions or not, the code is clear on it. Installed...

Installed is actually past tense.
"that, that has already been done"
install
"that, which will be done"
and installing"
That, "which is being done"

ask yourself this are there "outlets installed in these rooms"
if yes then the circuit needs AFCI.

I agree with N.C. code interpretation as not requiring them to be AFCI protected with older wiring, and possible multi-wired circuits could cost the home owner enough to keep him from even thinking about upgrading old out of date and overloaded service that may be a hazard.