How much to charge on failed service call?

[K8MHZ]

Don't forget to look behind hanging decorative mirrors.

That's one hour of my life I'll never get back.

I found a box buried behind a huge permanently mounted mirror in a brand new house. It had a bad connection and my tracer indicated that it was behind a finished wall with very expensive custom wood paneling on one side and a mirror on the other.

Boy was I nervous. It was decided to take out the mirror instead of damaging the paneling. I wouldn't do it, I told the HO that I was not trained to remove huge mirrors and I was afraid I would break it. $300 to remove it. I had to assure the customer that my tracer was correct, something I have learned not to do 100 percent of the time.

The mirror ended up getting broken, but indeed, there was a box behind it with a bad connection inside.

 

[K8MHZ]

Oh I was pretty sure that there was a GFCI somewhere because the house was new enough, but it shouldn't have been in the bathroom. I made the mistake of using logic that day.:roll:

I have found them behind shelves in a garage and on a post, outside, in a garden and overgrown with decorative plants. Both were tripped and protected other outlets inside the residences.

 

[bauler]

Yea, doing mostly residential work I run into some weird stuff. I'm still doing it the old fashion way, divide and conquer. What do you guys recommend for a circuit tracer? Just don't want to spend $800+ in a tracer that doesn't do the job.

 

[growler]

I found a box buried behind a huge permanently mounted mirror in a brand new house. It had a bad connection and my tracer indicated that it was behind a finished wall with very expensive custom wood paneling on one side and a mirror on the other.

I had a customer ( homeowner), not long ago, try to tell me that things like this don't happen because he knows that houses are inspected to make sure that things are done correctly.

I tried to explain to him that if a box is buried then an inspector can't see it either.

 

[Electric-Light]

$300 to remove it....
The mirror ended up getting broken

So, what came out of that? If I was ok with having it broken, I would have had some handyman take it down in the first place If I paid $300 for safe removal and they break it, I will pay the $300, but I expect them to foot the bill to replace the mirror or not pay at all if the cost of replacement was below $300.

 

[kwired]

I found a box buried behind a huge permanently mounted mirror in a brand new house. It had a bad connection and my tracer indicated that it was behind a finished wall with very expensive custom wood paneling on one side and a mirror on the other.

Boy was I nervous. It was decided to take out the mirror instead of damaging the paneling. I wouldn't do it, I told the HO that I was not trained to remove huge mirrors and I was afraid I would break it. $300 to remove it. I had to assure the customer that my tracer was correct, something I have learned not to do 100 percent of the time.

The mirror ended up getting broken, but indeed, there was a box behind it with a bad connection inside.

You could have made a hole in top or bottom of wall if attic or crawlspace or maybe inside vanity cabinet (if there was one below the mirror)and used a 'see snake' or similar imaging device to possibly verify what is in the wall. You may even be able to fish new lines somehow and abandon the concealed box in place.

 

[dbuckley]

On another note, I really smile at the "never had a problem I couldn't solve in 1/2 hour" comments. Must be awesome to be that good:grin:

Thats not quite what I sad: What I actually said was

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that for any resi fault that stays put (ie not an intermittent fault) then if you're still looking for the cause after half an hour then you've failed. I'm not saying you will have the problem in your hand, for example you may have determined that the fault is somewhere hidden under a wall between two adjacent outlets, but you are confident you know where it is, and if the customer says "yep, cut that wall and fix it" then you wont come out with a red face.

Note I have not claimed to have never failed I also put two very specific caveats, 'resi' (so no motor control cabinets, VFDs, 20mA loops, PLCs and ladders, contactors, estops etc), and 'not intermittent', so the fault stays put, you're not chasing your tail, and not needing to have a plan involving leaving recording instruments in place for ages. Some faults can take pretty much forever to find, and some turn ot not be be faults but "situations", so theres nothing really wrong. The topic was resi faults that stay put whilst you track them down.

When most people troubleshoot, they dont have a plan. They dont draw a diagram as they go. They dont appreciate the binary chop. They start unscrewing stuff and looking. They have a minimum (or less) of test equipment (Remember MD's measuring intrument collection? Makes mine look inadequate).

It is possible to spend a lot of time troubleshooting, because many folks don't "troubleshoot"; they dont test, measure, document, and analyse. They repeat the steps the original installer took, checking each link in the chain, often in the same sequence, trying to see what has gone wrong since installation. And since the walls are up, you cant look to see that there isn't a picture hook thats perfed a cable.

The problem is that troubleshooting isn't taught as a skill, and it should be. In my opinion, its the best part of working with electricity.

And as an adjunct to this; regular watchers of House MD know that everyone lies. Its true of people with electrical problems too. They don't tell you they put a picture up and they discovered an outlet stopped working a week later...

 

[kwired]

... They don't tell you they put a picture up and they discovered an outlet stopped working a week later...

They don't always notice the connection between the two incidents. That is why you as a troubleshooter need to know the right questions to ask.

If they were driving a nail or screw into the wall and heard a pop/seen a flash and the lights went out all at the same time it is more obvious. They don't even need much troubleshooting done as they know that they likely damaged something concealed. If they are not smart to tell you this then they deserve to pay for all the extra looking around.

 

[ptonsparky]

I asked "What has changed lately?"

"My husband put up shelves in the garage." Not a happy woman.

It was a $300 nail.

 

[satcom]

I asked "What has changed lately?"

"My husband put up shelves in the garage." Not a happy woman.

It was a $300 nail.

Yes, asking questions, and some planning along with making notes as you proceed usually results in faster fault finding
Let the customer know up front information related to any recent work done can help speed up the job and save them troubleshooting time which is real money

 

[electricguy61]

Thats not quite what I sad: What I actually said was



Note I have not claimed to have never failed I also put two very specific caveats, 'resi' (so no motor control cabinets, VFDs, 20mA loops, PLCs and ladders, contactors, estops etc), and 'not intermittent', so the fault stays put, you're not chasing your tail, and not needing to have a plan involving leaving recording instruments in place for ages. Some faults can take pretty much forever to find, and some turn ot not be be faults but "situations", so theres nothing really wrong. The topic was resi faults that stay put whilst you track them down.

When most people troubleshoot, they dont have a plan. They dont draw a diagram as they go. They dont appreciate the binary chop. They start unscrewing stuff and looking. They have a minimum (or less) of test equipment (Remember MD's measuring intrument collection? Makes mine look inadequate).

It is possible to spend a lot of time troubleshooting, because many folks don't "troubleshoot"; they dont test, measure, document, and analyse. They repeat the steps the original installer took, checking each link in the chain, often in the same sequence, trying to see what has gone wrong since installation. And since the walls are up, you cant look to see that there isn't a picture hook thats perfed a cable.

The problem is that troubleshooting isn't taught as a skill, and it should be. In my opinion, its the best part of working with electricity.

And as an adjunct to this; regular watchers of House MD know that everyone lies. Its true of people with electrical problems too. They don't tell you they put a picture up and they discovered an outlet stopped working a week later...

If by binary chop, you mean dividing a problem in half continually, yes, I employed this strategy. I also own and put to use, a megger, an Ideal 61-165, a solenoid voltage tester, ammeter, many self devised test tools and a few years of troubleshooting experience. None of the tools, nor the experience, helped me to find the problem. I believe, as stated, that it was a flying splice, but the owner still hasn't returned my call to allow me to repair the problem.

It was not a matter of not knowing the problem, but one of trying (and failing) to save the trouble and expense of re-feeding a circuit on the ground floor of a 2-story home with a concrete slab floor.

I've learned much from this forum, but I've also seen a lot of arrogance displayed. Perhaps it's the problem that since we are only writing, and not hearing tone of voice, seeing facial expression, and knowing the personalities of the individuals posting that we don't know the true tone of the responses.

 

[mivey]

If by binary chop, you mean dividing a problem in half continually...

Hope so. Otherwise, I have a new dance move to learn.:grin:

 

[cowboyjwc]

.

I've learned much from this forum, but I've also seen a lot of arrogance displayed. Perhaps it's the problem that since we are only writing, and not hearing tone of voice, seeing facial expression, and knowing the personalities of the individuals posting that we don't know the true tone of the responses.

That and there is a lot of arrogance displayed.:roll: That's how I know that they're really electricians.

If they weren't arrogant, I would think they were plumbers.:grin:

 

[mivey]

That and there is a lot of arrogance displayed.:roll: That's how I know that they're really electricians.

If they weren't arrogant, I would think they were plumbers.:grin:

Poo has a way of humbling a person.:grin:

 

[LarryFine]

That and there is a lot of arrogance displayed.:roll: That's how I know that they're really electricians.

"I like that in a pilot!" ~ Viper in Top Gun

 

[KWH]

You could set an amount not to exceed

You could set an amount not to exceed

My old boss did this one time, had a tripping breaker that would work fine when I was there but would trip at random. This was an old home 2story with a partial crawlspace. I didnt find the problem until the third trip which everything was working fine on every trip. The homeowner finally remembered the hvac guy had replaced some duct work in the crawlspace, problem ended up being a nicked wire but would only trip the breaker when you walked on the floor above in the right place and would cause the dead short.

 

[hurk27]

would cause the dead short.

Never seen a dead short, all the ones I have seen were live

 

[knoppdude]

No need to talk about what it was, but i spent hours trying to fix lost power to a light switch and couldn't figure it out.

I like the whole 'satisfaction guaranteed' thing, but i still ought to charge something. $100 minimum? Free? one hour? two hours? Half time? Pay him???? I changed about five outlets that broke when i took them out of their boxes. They cost 50 cents a piece.

I feel like an idiot for not stopping and just running a new wire from the panel, but i got carried away trying to find this thing, also got on a wild goose chase when the owner said they had the same problem a year ago and it was fixed by changing an outlet in a bedroom across the house (nearer the panel). Oh well. take another one up the poopie-doo.

Bullheimer, I am no expert trouble-shooter, but one thing I learned when trying to solve an electrical problem is to start by talking to the person most familiar with the equipment, or building having the problem. I ask if this has happened before, when and under what circumstances, etc. It took me awhile to learn to do this, and these people didn't know they usually had the answer to the problem, but they are a good resource of information. This finally sunk in when I spent half a day chasing through a houses rat nest of wiring until I finally found one receptacle I hadn't checked. As I was taking off the cover plate, the homeowner told me that was the problem the last time it happened. I gave him a minimal bill, and left with a new realization about the customers role in trouble-shooting electrical problems.

 

[mivey]

but would only trip the breaker when you walked on the floor above in the right place and would cause the dead short.

Good grief! It might have taken quite a while to recognize that pattern of behavior.

 

[PetrosA]

I can't add a whole lot to the conversation except for this observation - Never make assumptions when troubleshooting. Only facts will solve the puzzle and that usually means measurements.

The mirror story is a good one because it illustrates that a proper diagnosis can mean large costs to the customer but at least the data collected beforehand absolves the electrician of liability. I once diagnosed a well pump as bad that was estimated at over $16,000 to replace (600' well, fences had to be removed, cranes brought in etc.). Ultimately the entire run from the house to the well was bad as well as the pump - a walkway was torn up, trees were removed and flower beds destroyed. It was the most nervous I've ever been making a diagnosis. I had enough data to back it up though