TESLA VS. EDISON

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Besoeker

Senior Member
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UK
They had variable speed motors before the word "semiconductor" meant something ..
What I posted was "this usually requires power semiconductors". Requires. Present tense.
Yes, of course variable speed DC drives pre-date semiconductors. I'm fairly old and I have had first hand experience of quite a few DC drive systems that didn't use semiconductors.
Here's a manual I happened to have on my desk. At a guess it's from maybe the 1950s or earlier. I don't know why we had it - probably for a system we upgraded.

Velonic01.jpg
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
It's still a DC "drive" system though, it just didn't use semiconductors as we know them today. It was a resistance ribon and a 99 position switch. In other words it was not the MOTOR that was inherently variable speed, it was HOW you applied power to it that made it so. That is the same as it is with AC motors now. The only difference really is that the technology for allowing this to happen with AC motors took longer to come about.
Thanks, Jraef.
A little digression on speed control of AC motors.
I'm pretty old. I started in employment as a development/commissioning engineer. Well, I got roped into doing a fair bit of troubleshooting on old systems, some of it manufactured before I was born to designs that pre-dated that by quite some years. I suppose, in part, this was because I was young, had no family, and was prepared to travel with little or no notice.
Much of it was on paper machines where a number of DC drives have to run in precise speed control and and defined close speed ratios. Speed holding to better than 0.1% is a process requirement for good product.

One early system was the faceplate regulator. The armature voltage to all the DC motors came from a DC generator driven by an AC motor. The DC generator output voltage was controlled by adjusting its field either directly or by the field of a common shaft driven exciter. A Ward-Leonard system, so conventional for that era.

The precise speed control of the individual motors was by a face-plate rheostat in the shunt field. The position of the rheostat arm was determined by the output of a differential gearbox. One input was from the drive motor and the other from a synchronous motor. Any difference between the two resulted in the arm moving until there was no difference. The resultant steady state was zero speed error.

The speed of the synchronous motor was determined by the frequency of the Master Alternator. That, in turn, was driven by the Master Motor, the speed of which determined overall machine speed. Variable frequency.

The last one I worked on was originally in the UK but, as with many others, the mill closed. The entire paper machine, including the drives, was shipped to the far east. The drives had worked well but, being of 1930s vintage, replacement parts were getting difficult to source. We were in the process of replacing some bits of the system with electronics. In particular, the faceplate rheostats were in poor condition so we converted them to electronic regulators. We replaced the main generator with a DC drive. Quite a few other major and minor changes were made.

Along with the whole kit and caboodle being shipped to the far east, so was I and a mechanical engineer. Baptism by fire in some ways. I was in my mid twenties and not many years qualified but I had done the design work. I was 10,000 miles from home with an eight hour time difference. And, forty years ago, there was no internet. Essentially, I was on my own. For eight months from laying the sole plates to getting paper off the end of the machine.
You learn from such experiences.
 

CONTROL FREQ

Member
Location
OHIO
First off, I REALLY APPRECIATE every single reply to my question. I wanted to be more interactive in this discussion, but I showed up for work the morning after my post and a huge water line had broken above a control cabinet (obviously, the door/conduit seals are no longer functional) there was about an inch of water in the bottom of the cabinet and 7 completely fried VFD?s. The description I got was ?it looked like a fire hose spraying directly onto the panel?. To make matters worse, the guys from the previous shift had replaced a ?whole bunch? of fuses before I got there (probably resulting in 7 VFD?s being toast!!) they also tried to ?help me out? and replaced the (2) VFD?s they thought were ?blown?. Unfortunately, they checked the H.P. but not the voltage rating. Just as I walked up to ask what was going on, one of the guys yelled ?throw the switch?. BOOM---BOOM. Both of the 208 VFD?s blew up. I looked at the labels, and knew right away. These were A/B 160?s (obsolete pretty much) so I had to get SEVEN Powerflex 4M?s, pronto, and retro-fit them to our system. Not to bad really, but they didn?t come in until LOOONG after I?d waited long enough for one day? the 3rd shifters wired them up? ?couldn?t get ?em to work? (0-10VDC speed reference confused them), DID I MENTION this all happened the day we scheduled a conveyor system replacement and I had contractors twiddling their thumbs until I could get time to show them what to do? The new c/v system has ?air jacks? for lack of better terminology and the conveyor actually drops out from under boxes that can?t move forward one section of c/v at a time in progression? a lot of programming needed done as well, by who else? At?d be me too. Been a busy week, gotta work the weekend as well? also told by the boss to make step-by-step instruction for changing VFD?s including which parameters to change and which ones to leave alone. WHEW! I WIL DEFINITLY catch up to this one whenever I can? THANKS AGAIN!!! SOOO MUCH?
:slaphead:
MIKE
 

CONTROL FREQ

Member
Location
OHIO
"BOOM---BOOM. Both of the 208 VFD?s blew up. I looked at the labels, and knew right away. These were A/B 160?s (obsolete pretty much) so I had to get SEVEN Powerflex 4M?s, (480V)pronto,"

guess I shoulda clarifed it was a 480 control panel. AND as I read through, I noticed something... I'm pushing 40 years old... Some of you guys were doing this ssshhhhtuff before I was even born. I just want to say THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO OUR TRADE. One 'seemingly minor' contribution/suggestion, etc... I AM certain, has saved SOME person's life... And they probably don't even know it...
WE CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH...
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
Occupation
Engineer
Requires. Present tense.

OK, fair enough. And semi systems are far far better than their predecessors.

If you want a bigger system, here's an interesting one I never got to fiddle with it, but it was fun to watch in action. The 10x10 system was even bigger.

As for AC, a major early user of variable speed AC motors was the Pennsylvania Railroad now NorthEast Corridor prime movers. They used brushed series motors, same as on DC. Tremendous starting torque. The gotcha of such is the XL of the winding limited the current. Their answer? Build out a 25 KHz grid to run the system; lower (f), lower XL. Other railroads used 16⅔ Hz.

As for being in NoWhereStan working on stuph; BTDTGTTS. I recall being in Tegucigalpa with a Spanish-speaking escolta & a Spanish-speaking driver, desperately seeking a metric tap&die set. All over town... Here's a hint; a Berlitz dictionary does NOT list those tools....

As for ..different... I was just learning about the Western Electric 508 motor-alternator used for 6 Ghz microwave sites. It had both AC & DC drive motors:

At start-up the AC motor ran as a simple squirrel cage induction motor; internal flux pathways were designed into the rotor so that as it came up to speed it would "pull into" synchronous rotation...

There was also a DC motor on the same shaft...

When AC power failed the DC motor took the load until station generators fired up and came on-line...

The DC brushes were lifted by solenoids to eliminate wear until they were needed. When commercial AC failed, the solenoids dropped the brushes onto the commutator; taking DC current from 130V station battery plant...


I've never heard of a synchronous motor without a wound armature and a DC supply to excite it.
 
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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
OK, fair enough. And semi systems are far far better than their predecessors.

If you want a bigger system, here's an interesting one I never got to fiddle with it, but it was fun to watch in action. The 10x10 system was even bigger.
Interesting indeed and a bit of a beast. Or beasts, being three 29,000 hp motors.
They are wound rotor machines using a liquid rotor resistor to control the speed.
We do an electronic version of this but not in the same league rating wise. The biggest to date has around 7,000 kW (a bit over 9,000 hp). The arrangement is sometimes called a Kramer drive or perhaps more formally as a sub-synchronous converter cascade. Essentially, it recovers the power from the rotor that is dissipated in the liquid resistors of the NASA scheme. And we have a little trick with ours that keeps the controlled kVA down, hence it very high efficiency and has very much lower harmonics than a typical inverter.



As for AC, a major early user of variable speed AC motors was the Pennsylvania Railroad now NorthEast Corridor prime movers. They used brushed series motors, same as on DC. Tremendous starting torque. The gotcha of such is the XL of the winding limited the current. Their answer? Build out a 25 KHz grid to run the system; lower (f), lower XL. Other railroads used 16⅔ Hz.
Assume you mean 25Hz rather than 25kHz?


As for being in NoWhereStan working on stuph; BTDTGTTS.
Que?
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Open Neutral

As for being in NoWhereStan working on stuph; BTDTGTTS.

I'm not smart enough to add anything to this post. But maybe this I can decipher.

Been There Done That Got The Tee Shirt :)
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Actually DC is making a comeback. In the last two months, there have been articles in IAEI News- EC Magazine and EC&M. The IAEI news and EC were worthless for facts, but the EC&M is right to the point
http://ecmweb.com/construction/dc_house_201110729/

Its interesting to note the DC distribution standards are already in place- a system for Class 2 wiring for LED luminaires in t-bar ceiling....
http://www.emergealliance.org/

The DC house makes sense, as wind and solar are DC as well as EVs.
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
Occupation
Engineer
Assume you mean 25Hz rather than 25kHz?

Yep, sorry. The bitter irony is Amtrak lacks the money to replace the system & thus just spent million$ rebuilding 60Hz->25 Hz converters. Seems the solid state ones have a pretty nasty harmonic output level which the rotary ones eat.

The NYC-Boston region is all 25KV/60 Hz as is the rolling stock; but not points south.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Yep, sorry. The bitter irony is Amtrak lacks the money to replace the system & thus just spent million$ rebuilding 60Hz->25 Hz converters. Seems the solid state ones have a pretty nasty harmonic output level which the rotary ones eat.
The input might also. But there are ways to mitigate this for both input and output.
I've dealt with rotary frequency converters, mostly 50Hz to 60Hz for UK dockyards that have to accommodate foreign 60Hz vessels.
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
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Inside the Beltway
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Engineer
The input might also. But there are ways to mitigate this for both input and output.
I've dealt with rotary frequency converters, mostly 50Hz to 60Hz for UK dockyards that have to accommodate foreign 60Hz vessels.

Not sure I catch your meaning. Mine:

a) Amtrac would love to upgrade from 12KV/25 Hz to 25KV/60 Hz but lacks the $$$.
[Much of the 25 Hz system S of NYC goes back to the 1930's....]

b) Failing same, they bought some static 60->25 Hz converters such as at Jericho Park.

c) They soon discovered the harmonics such wrought; and that not only were the rotary ones "cleaner" but they would actually help eat the harmonics their young upstarts spewed.

d) So they spent ??$300E6?? rebuilding the rotary units at Safe Harbor, I think it was.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Not sure I catch your meaning. Mine:

a) Amtrac would love to upgrade from 12KV/25 Hz to 25KV/60 Hz but lacks the $$$.
[Much of the 25 Hz system S of NYC goes back to the 1930's....]

b) Failing same, they bought some static 60->25 Hz converters such as at Jericho Park.

c) They soon discovered the harmonics such wrought; and that not only were the rotary ones "cleaner" but they would actually help eat the harmonics their young upstarts spewed.

d) So they spent ??$300E6?? rebuilding the rotary units at Safe Harbor, I think it was.
I didn't explain it very well or not at all.
Solid state frequency converters have harmonic content on both input and output.
For the input side those would be multiples of the supply frequency and depend on rectifier configuration.
We, and others, have made systems up to a few MW and used a 24-pulse input. The lowest order harmonic current is then 23rd (1380Hz) and 1/23 of the fundamental.
The sequence is 24n ? 1 where n is 1, 2, 3 etc. - the counting numbers.
This, if troublesome, is relatively easy to filter out.

The input would be the point of common coupling with the rotary sets. It's difficult to see how the rotary sets would consume harmonics. The prime mover would most likely be an induction motor of some sort and this an inductive load. Inductive reactance increases with frequency so would not sink the higher order harmonics. Maybe they had power factor correction which would?
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
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Engineer
Solid state frequency converters have harmonic content on both input and output.
...
For the input side those would be multiples of the supply frequency and depend on rectifier configuration.
...
The input would be the point of common coupling with the rotary sets. It's difficult to see how the rotary sets would consume harmonics.

My only knowledge comes from reading stuff from the RR folks; they are solely concerned with the 25 Hz harmonics. I guess in their mind, the 60 Hz ones are PoCo's headache.

The "point of common coupling" is err.. The rotary and static converters are ~100 miles apart. Penn RR ran their own 138KV/25Hz distribution, along with a few KV or 100Hz used for signal/switch power. Segments may be supplied by more than one substation [138KV-->12Kv] but there are "phase breaks" they coast through between segments.
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I bought this book on amazon based on your recommendation. Read the first couple of chapters last night. The history of all the "money men" involved is really interesting.

Cool! I hope you dig it, let me know what you think. I could read it again, it seed very approachable, enough story in the history to give it a good flow.
 
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