K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
This definition from Dictionary.com
It's like parking in the driveway and driving on the parkway, if you think about it....
ground wire clockwise around ground screws
- Thread starter binney
- Start date
- Status
This definition from Dictionary.com
It's like parking in the driveway and driving on the parkway, if you think about it....
handy10
Senior Member
- Location
- western suburbs, chicago
Maybe its called a terminal because the device leads terminate on the wire?
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
If buses could only stop at the bus terminal, we'd soon be out of buses 
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
ter?mi?nal (t?rm-nl)
adj.
1. Of, at, relating to, or forming a limit, boundary, extremity, or end.
2. Botany Growing or appearing at the end of a stem, branch, stalk, or similar part.
3. Of, at, relating to, or being the end of a section or series; final. See Synonyms at last1.
4. Relating to or occurring in a term or each term: terminal inventories.
5. Causing, ending in, or approaching death; fatal: terminal cancer; a terminal patient.
n.
1. A point or part that forms the end.
2. An ornamental figure or object placed at the end of a larger structure; a finial.
3. Electricity
a. A position in a circuit or device at which a connection is normally established or broken.
b. A passive conductor at such a position used to facilitate the connection.
4.
a. Either end of a railroad or other transportation line; a terminus.
b. A station at the end of a transportation line or at a major junction on a transportation line.
c. A town at the end of a transportation line.
5. Computer Science A device, often equipped with a keyboard and a video display, through which data or information can be entered or displayed.
adj.
1. Of, at, relating to, or forming a limit, boundary, extremity, or end.
2. Botany Growing or appearing at the end of a stem, branch, stalk, or similar part.
3. Of, at, relating to, or being the end of a section or series; final. See Synonyms at last1.
4. Relating to or occurring in a term or each term: terminal inventories.
5. Causing, ending in, or approaching death; fatal: terminal cancer; a terminal patient.
n.
1. A point or part that forms the end.
2. An ornamental figure or object placed at the end of a larger structure; a finial.
3. Electricity
a. A position in a circuit or device at which a connection is normally established or broken.
b. A passive conductor at such a position used to facilitate the connection.
4.
a. Either end of a railroad or other transportation line; a terminus.
b. A station at the end of a transportation line or at a major junction on a transportation line.
c. A town at the end of a transportation line.
5. Computer Science A device, often equipped with a keyboard and a video display, through which data or information can be entered or displayed.
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Ok, that being said, here's what a little research has turned up:
- Neither Cerrowire, Nexans or Southwire (all available locally) have any instructions regarding the installation or termination of their NM-B products on their websites.
- Neither Ideal, Gardner-Bender or NSI industries has any instructions for the proper use of their 10-32 ground screws (some are UL listed, though).
- The instructions for the most common dimmer in most houses, a Lutron AY600P, includes an illustration and instructions for attaching a loop of wire to the screw terminal when it exists:
View attachment 7197
(pdf available here with illustration in step 3)
While I understand your argument and your concern for safety as an inspector, I can find no indication other than omittance of the technique in some instruction sheets that it would be forbidden. Omittance is not a clear argument against loops.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
In your example note which side the wire is on under the screw! So since they omitted wrapping around the screw two, three or more times is OK?
The loop is for existing installations. They know that it is easier to show the homeowner how to 'fix' this problem than to have them cut the wire and properly install it!
I guess they other manufactures have no instructions because they thought people had common sense as to how to terminate a wire.
The terminal is made for TERMINATING a wire not for a feed through.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
A train, bus, airplane terminals are the end of the line? Just like an electrical junction device they are at the end of a particular segment but overall it continues from one terminal to the next. Unlike some of the transportation methods electricity can not come to the end of a path and then back up, it must travel in a circuit (loop).
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
It could be done, besides, that's specifically for 'side wire' and I don't think it applies to the grounding terminal. Which, BTW is still a terminal no matter how it is wired.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
All we are concerned with is 3a. All that is needed is a place to connect or disconnect a wire or wires in order to be called a terminal. I see nothing indicating that the definintion is conditional upon the way the connection is going to be made.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
FWIW, I don't use the method because I don't like it. I don't, however, see it being against the NEC and know that inspectors don't gig people for doing it.
I don't like the method because most of the loops I have seen result in a very misaligned and sometimes loose connection. If I was an inspector I would not try to gig the loops just on the NEC. The side posts, if not used as directed may be an easy one to gig, but I would be looking very closely at the integrity of the connections. If you find more than one loose, that would be cause to force a change and easy to validate.
I don't like the method because most of the loops I have seen result in a very misaligned and sometimes loose connection. If I was an inspector I would not try to gig the loops just on the NEC. The side posts, if not used as directed may be an easy one to gig, but I would be looking very closely at the integrity of the connections. If you find more than one loose, that would be cause to force a change and easy to validate.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
But would we then be going to?
110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment
shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
I would never want to have to enforce this one.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Well, that's actually in the book, while there is no specific rule against looping in there.
110.12 may be more important than you think. Otherwise there wouldn't be 640.6(A), 720.11, 725.24, 760.24, 800.24, 820.24 or 830.24.
A 110.12 gig for looping is stretching it. A 100.12 gig for multiple loose connections is a no-brainer. If the installer made all the loops perfect and they were all nice and tight and there was nothing prohibiting them, what, really, would the problem be?
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Mike,
You need to keep in mind that the rules in the NEC are simply the point of demarcation between the worst methods allowed by law and those not allowed by law, period. It, by far, is not a guide to guide to good workmanship, but does insist that it be present. And does so in several places.
You need to keep in mind that the rules in the NEC are simply the point of demarcation between the worst methods allowed by law and those not allowed by law, period. It, by far, is not a guide to guide to good workmanship, but does insist that it be present. And does so in several places.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Agreed failing when all connections are tight and you or me don't like how it is installed, that is wrong.
We are debating if we think that it is a code violation. I lean toward yes but again is it worth failing? No.
I do know of an inspector who would fail if the egc was not installed as I have discussed. Back in the 90's.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
IF the connection technique is part of the instructions and that technique did not include looping, you could gig that for the particular terminal it is addressing. A side terminal and a ground terminal are different.
What about looping around the ground srcew in the back of a metal box? I doubt you could find anything that prohibits that.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
300.3 Conductors.
(A) Single Conductors. Single conductors specified in
Table 310.104(A) shall only be installed where part of a
recognized wiring method of Chapter 3.
So it is OK to tap the ungrounded conductor? Isn't that what you are doing when you loop on a switch?
The reason that I say single conductor is because it is no longer part of a assembly. Or all the conductors are now NOT the same length.
(A) Single Conductors. Single conductors specified in
Table 310.104(A) shall only be installed where part of a
recognized wiring method of Chapter 3.
So it is OK to tap the ungrounded conductor? Isn't that what you are doing when you loop on a switch?
The reason that I say single conductor is because it is no longer part of a assembly. Or all the conductors are now NOT the same length.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
You lost me on that one, Mike.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
What I am trying to say is, you have a wire going to a switch but before you reach it you 'tap' off to another switch.
Also all conductors are required to be the same length.
I'll see if I can make a drawing of what I am thinking.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Since when?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
310.10(H)(2) Conductor Characteristics. The paralleled conductors
in each phase, polarity, neutral, grounded circuit conductor,
equipment grounding conductor, or equipment bonding
jumper shall comply with all of the following:
(1) Be the same length
(2) Consist of the same conductor material
(3) Be the same size in circular mil area
(4) Have the same insulation type
(5) Be terminated in the same manner
Aren't they paralleled in the box? Yes!
First attempt at drawing.
- Status