'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

[peter d]

Both can learn from one another, both have their strong points and their weak points. Condemnation without investigation is said to be the highest form of ignorance. I choose to research everything before condemning it. Researching other codes has taught me a lot. For example I can wire a whole home with #14 without problems thanks to researching the CEC.

I agree that we can always learn from other model codes. Nor am I condemning the British Standards, or the IEC, or any code for that matter. I'm simply saying we don't need to impose IEC or BS rules on our codes anymore than the British need to impose AFCI's or other NEC-type rules on their codes. We (and by that I mean the world community) seems to have codes that work fine in our respective nations, despite their weaknesses. I simply do not see the need to fix something that is not broken.

As for wiring a house with all #14 in the USA, sure, you can do that, but it's never going to pass inspection.

 

[templdl]

Post what you have, im not picky

I'm going to have to fire up my desk top to down load the pics and then upload the files to this form first which I haven't done in a few years.

 

[mbrooke]

I agree that we can always learn from other model codes. Nor am I condemning the British Standards, or the IEC, or any code for that matter. I'm simply saying we don't need to impose IEC or BS rules on our codes anymore than the British need to impose AFCI's or other NEC-type rules on their codes. We (and by that I mean the world community) seems to have codes that work fine in our respective nations, despite their weaknesses. I simply do not see the need to fix something that is not broken.

As for wiring a house with all #14 in the USA, sure, you can do that, but it's never going to pass inspection.

Very true, and well said But in any case improvements can be made. For one changing the NEC wire ampacities to the CEC ampacities would save a lot of labor, cost and copper without comprising anything. Once the code allows for something like that it will pass inspection.

 

[peter d]

Peter,
Once you get used to correct testing methods fault finding is easy. Now we come full circle to testing and recording results.

I'm not really arguing about the usefulness of testing methods as most electricians are pretty proficient at testing though we don't do earth loop testing or insulation testing like you do. An installation (like my pool panel example) could start out fine but develop a fault down the road. Having one breaker trip for the entire panel necessitates additional (and unnecessary) testing.

Could someone give me a logical explanation why routine testing is such a taboo subject in the US?

It's just something we have never done historically, at least not in residential settings. As to the "why" of that, I have no idea. Is that logical? I guess not. But anyway, I suppose it's taboo for no other reason that it will add time, complexity and cost to every electrical installation, as well as the need to invest in expensive test equipment. What do those Fluke/Robin testers you use cost anyway?

Loop impedance and insulation testing will show any faulty connections or cables saving all those call backs to tripping AFCI’s. You can sleep easy in your bed knowing the house or whatever you’ve rewired will still be there in the morning.

Again, we almost never test our circuitry and I sleep just fine.

 

[mbrooke]

I'm going to have to fire up my desk top to down load the pics and then upload the files to this form first which I haven't done in a few years.

Thanks!

I owe you now.

 

[peter d]

Very true, and well said But in any case improvements can be made. For one changing the NEC wire ampacities to the CEC ampacities would save a lot of labor, cost and copper without comprising anything. Once the code allows for something like that it will pass inspection.

Yes, but if anything, I think the NEC needs a complete overhaul long before we consider any foreign influence on our codes and standards. Let's get our own house in order first.

 

[templdl]

Post what you have, im not picky

I'm going to have to fire up my desk top to down load the pics and then upload the files to this form first which I haven't done in a few years.

 

[mbrooke]

Yes, but if anything, I think the NEC needs a complete overhaul long before we consider any foreign influence on our codes and standards. Let's get our own house in order first.

True, but when you re-write a code you need to put what works in there. Other codes tend to me a testing laboratory if you will, they prove that something will or will not work ahead of time.


Hopefully the rest of the world can see what a failure AFCIs have been in the US.

 

[Tony S]

I'm not really arguing about the usefulness of testing methods as most electricians are pretty proficient at testing though we don't do earth loop testing or insulation testing like you do. An installation (like my pool panel example) could start out fine but develop a fault down the road. Having one breaker trip for the entire panel necessitates additional (and unnecessary) testing.



It's just something we have never done historically, at least not in residential settings. As to the "why" of that, I have no idea. Is that logical? I guess not. But anyway, I suppose it's taboo for no other reason that it will add time, complexity and cost to every electrical installation, as well as the need to invest in expensive test equipment. What do those Fluke/Robin testers you use cost anyway?



Again, we almost never test our circuitry and I sleep just fine.

So now we get to the crux of the matter, time and money.

How about when you give a warranty for a job you’ve completed and you get called back time and time again. That costs even more money when you take time and travel in to account.

It’s something we’ll have to agree to disagree on.
You have an AHJ inspection system that from what I read here has more holes in it than my girlfriend’s fishnet stockings.
We have a legal obligation to notify building control of test results.

 

[romex jockey]

5 blind men describe an elephant.....

5 blind men describe an elephant.....

Every system has it's pros and cons.

The codes being predicated on electrical theory juxtaposed to their best practical application

One will never understand the relevance of this unless the perspective of 'other systems' are considered.

Why do you think AFCI's are such a huge NEC /CEC market Vs. it's (much larger) IEC counterpart folks?

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

So now we get to the crux of the matter, time and money.

How about when you give a warranty for a job you’ve completed and you get called back time and time again. That costs even more money when you take time and travel in to account.

It’s something we’ll have to agree to disagree on.
You have an AHJ inspection system that from what I read here has more holes in it than my girlfriend’s fishnet stockings.
We have a legal obligation to notify building control of test results.

Its interesting note that you have rules like this in the NEC:

110.7 Wiring Integrity. Completed wiring installations
shall be free from short circuits, ground faults, or any connections
to ground other than as required or permitted elsewhere
in this Code.

In truth there is just no way to know or prove that without testing. The 30/50ma GFP in AFCI has caught conditions like this from sloppy wiring.

 

[iwire]

5 blind men describe an elephant.....

One crab in VT rambles, it seems to be a wash.

 

[growler]

Peter,
Once you get used to correct testing methods fault finding is easy. Now we come full circle to testing and recording results.

Could someone give me a logical explanation why routine testing is such a taboo subject in the US?

Loop impedance and insulation testing will show any faulty connections or cables saving all those call backs to tripping AFCI’s. You can sleep easy in your bed knowing the house or whatever you’ve rewired will still be there in the morning.

The reason that testing of new construction residential wiring is taboo is because we don't need it.

We have a pretty much "paint by the numbers" wiring system, the NEC. If wiring is installed following all applicable codes then the wiring is considered safe. So far no one has found any reason to doubt the system works.

AFCIs installed today are to protect against faulty electrical cords and problems that may arise 20-30-40 years down the road. I don't really see how this is going to work because I don't think this generation of AFCIs will even last that long.

I think that testing of older homes would be helpful but you are going to have a hard time getting that one past the public. Someone is going to have to pay for this routine testing and that someone is going to be homeowners and landlords and that's going to be a problem. They already don't like paying for minor repairs that would keep them safe and they do have that choice.

 

[mbrooke]

The reason that testing of new construction residential wiring is taboo is because we don't need it.

We have a pretty much "paint by the numbers" wiring system, the NEC. If wiring is installed following all applicable codes then the wiring is considered safe. So far no one has found any reason to doubt the system works.

AFCIs installed today are to protect against faulty electrical cords and problems that may arise 20-30-40 years down the road. I don't really see how this is going to work because I don't think this generation of AFCIs will even last that long.

I think that testing of older homes would be helpful but you are going to have a hard time getting that one past the public. Someone is going to have to pay for this routine testing and that someone is going to be homeowners and landlords and that's going to be a problem. They already don't like paying for minor repairs that would keep them safe and they do have that choice.

I partly disagree. Sloppy electricians have abused that privilege. In truth even the best electricians make the occasional error at no fault of their own. When AFCIs came out a lot of the tripping came from the 30ma GFP picking up damaged cables and crossed circuit both considered code violations. Testing would have caught them just as well.

 

[peter d]

I partly disagree. Sloppy electricians have abused that privilege. In truth even the best electricians make the occasional error at no fault of their own. When AFCIs came out a lot of the tripping came from the 30ma GFP picking up damaged cables and crossed circuit both considered code violations. Testing would have caught them just as well.

So you're saying we should have mandatory testing?

 

[Fulthrotl]

So you're saying we should have mandatory testing?

no, we should have consumers who give a poop about their stuff.
most people don't. cheap is everything to most people.
it seems we live in a nation of used car salesmen.

you can't legislate attitude.

we have a number of things that are mandated.
smog checks come to mind.
why? 'cause "consumers" consume. they don't maintain much of anything.

 

[peter d]

no, we should have consumers who give a poop about their stuff.
most people don't. cheap is everything to most people.
it seems we live in a nation of used car salesmen.

you can't legislate attitude.

we have a number of things that are mandated.
smog checks come to mind.
why? 'cause "consumers" consume. they don't maintain much of anything.

If you want to test your installations because it makes you all warm and fuzzy, knock your socks off.

I can say categorically I have never megged or continuity checked an installation I have done in a dwelling unit, ever. Why? Because I don't need to.

 

[peter d]

The reason that testing of new construction residential wiring is taboo is because we don't need it.

We have a pretty much "paint by the numbers" wiring system, the NEC. If wiring is installed following all applicable codes then the wiring is considered safe. So far no one has found any reason to doubt the system works.

AFCIs installed today are to protect against faulty electrical cords and problems that may arise 20-30-40 years down the road. I don't really see how this is going to work because I don't think this generation of AFCIs will even last that long.

I think that testing of older homes would be helpful but you are going to have a hard time getting that one past the public. Someone is going to have to pay for this routine testing and that someone is going to be homeowners and landlords and that's going to be a problem. They already don't like paying for minor repairs that would keep them safe and they do have that choice.

Well said. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[donaldelectrician]

The reason that testing of new construction residential wiring is taboo is because we don't need it.

We have a pretty much "paint by the numbers" wiring system, the NEC. If wiring is installed following all applicable codes then the wiring is considered safe. So far no one has found any reason to doubt the system works.

AFCIs installed today are to protect against faulty electrical cords and problems that may arise 20-30-40 years down the road. I don't really see how this is going to work because I don't think this generation of AFCIs will even last that long.

I think that testing of older homes would be helpful but you are going to have a hard time getting that one past the public. Someone is going to have to pay for this routine testing and that someone is going to be homeowners and landlords and that's going to be a problem. They already don't like paying for minor repairs that would keep them safe and they do have that choice.

2X Well Said .




Don

 

[user 100]

The reason that testing of new construction residential wiring is taboo is because we don't need it.

We have a pretty much "paint by the numbers" wiring system, the NEC. If wiring is installed following all applicable codes then the wiring is considered safe. So far no one has found any reason to doubt the system works.

AFCIs installed today are to protect against faulty electrical cords and problems that may arise 20-30-40 years down the road. I don't really see how this is going to work because I don't think this generation of AFCIs will even last that long.

I think that testing of older homes would be helpful but you are going to have a hard time getting that one past the public. Someone is going to have to pay for this routine testing and that someone is going to be homeowners and landlords and that's going to be a problem. They already don't like paying for minor repairs that would keep them safe and they do have that choice.

X3- Our system isn't so messed that we need all these preventables. When you spend billions to prevent something that isn't an issue to start with, you aren't preventing anything-your simply wasting time and money, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.