Sauna GFCI?

trojans4 said:
Someone on another electrician website said that since the heater doesn't use a neutral that the GFCI neutral shouldn't be connected to the neutral bar in the disconnect panel because it could be picking up voltage from the other circuit connected to the neutral bar and somehow cause it to trip.
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Disconnect the breaker neutral and it will probably never trip again. It also won't be providing the required GFCI protection either. So whoever said that is propagating dangerous nonsense that could get someone killed.
 
Little Bill said:
That "someone" doesn't know what he's talking about. The GFCI needs the neutral to function. It doesn't need a load neutral hooked to it to function, but needs the line side neutral connected to the neutral bar.

Would you please update your profile to include your occupation.
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Well, I have a degree in physics, and have a master electrician license. If you are implying I shouldn't be doing electrical work because I didn't know about how the electronics work inside of a 2 pole gfci you are going to have to get rid of a majority of licensed electricians.
 
infinity said:
Disconnect the breaker neutral and it will probably never trip again. It also won't be providing the required GFCI protection either. So whoever said that is propagating dangerous nonsense that could get someone killed.
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I got that from your buddy, Little Bill. So, another question, most other countries don't have 240/120 power and just have 220V, 2 hots and a ground. I assume they have different 2 pole GFCI breakers since they have no neutral bar to connect to?
 
trojans4 said:
I have a customer that has a hot tub similar to yours that requires a 30A and 20A GFCI breaker. The 20A breaker goes with the heating element and works for a while and then trips after a couple of hours or sometimes the next day. No ground fault in the wire to the tub. Service tech over the phone said it was probably a bad heating element. Owner replaced the heating element. The breaker still trips after a few hours. Someone on another electrician website said that since the heater doesn't use a neutral that the GFCI neutral shouldn't be connected to the neutral bar in the disconnect panel because it could be picking up voltage from the other circuit connected to the neutral bar and somehow cause it to trip. According to this thread the GFCI needs to neutral to function? Is that correct?
PS - There is no apparent leak anywhere.
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The gfci needs a line side neutral to operate correctly doesn’t need a load side neutral to function. Doesn’t matter if the heater is straight 240, if it requires gfci protection you need to provide it . That breaker will not function properly without the line side neutral. Pig tail needs to stay connected


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trojans4 said:
Well, I have a degree in physics, and have a master electrician license. If you are implying I shouldn't be doing electrical work because I didn't know about how the electronics work inside of a 2 pole gfci you are going to have to get rid of a majority of licensed electricians.
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I don't know where you got that! The "someone" is the guy on the other website you mentioned. He didn't know what he was talking about!
Nothing was implied to you!
I quoted the section about that, it should have been obvious as to what I was referring to!
 
trojans4 said:
So, another question, most other countries don't have 240/120 power and just have 220V, 2 hots and a ground. I assume they have different 2 pole GFCI breakers since they have no neutral bar to connect to?
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No, they have one 240v hot and a grounded conductor, taken from a 3ph wye supply.

It still doesn't matter. A GFCI device depends on us having a grounded source to work.
 
LarryFine said:
No, they have one 240v hot and a grounded conductor, taken from a 3ph wye supply.

It still doesn't matter. A GFCI device depends on us having a grounded source to work.
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So it isn't a 2 pole breaker? It's just like our single pole breaker only made for 220V hot to ground. BTW most other countries are 220 not 240.
Little Bill said:
I don't know where you got that! The "someone" is the guy on the other website you mentioned. He didn't know what he was talking about!
Nothing was implied to you!
I quoted the section about that, it should have been obvious as to what I was referring to!
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Ok, sorry. I took your comment that I need to update my occupation as a put down. My mistake.
 
trojans4 said:
So it isn't a 2 pole breaker? It's just like our single pole breaker only made for 220V hot to ground. BTW most other countries are 220 not 240.


Ok, sorry. I took your comment that I need to update my occupation as a put down. My mistake.
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120 volt single volt single pole breakers are not the only common single pole breakers in the US 277 volt single pole breakers are very common in commercial applications for lighting circuits in the US


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trojans4 said:
Ok, sorry. I took your comment that I need to update my occupation as a put down. My mistake.
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No problem.
I asked for the update since that info was lost during one of the Forum change-overs a few years back.
We try to get everyone that doesn't show their occupation to update.
 
trojans4 said:
I have a customer that has a hot tub similar to yours that requires a 30A and 20A GFCI breaker. The 20A breaker goes with the heating element and works for a while and then trips after a couple of hours or sometimes the next day. No ground fault in the wire to the tub. Service tech over the phone said it was probably a bad heating element. Owner replaced the heating element. The breaker still trips after a few hours. Someone on another electrician website said that since the heater doesn't use a neutral that the GFCI neutral shouldn't be connected to the neutral bar in the disconnect panel because it could be picking up voltage from the other circuit connected to the neutral bar and somehow cause it to trip. According to this thread the GFCI needs to neutral to function? Is that correct?
PS - There is no apparent leak anywhere.
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Double check the heater element wattage. We have had customers put in a 6KW heater on the 20 amp breaker instead of the 4KW. At about 24 amp the breaker would take awhile to over heat and open.
 
Jaybone812 said:
120 volt single volt single pole breakers are not the only common single pole breakers in the US 277 volt single pole breakers are very common in commercial applications for lighting circuits in the US


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Yes, I wasn't thinking. I knew about the 277 breakers so that answers that question. The hot tub 2 pole GFCI breaker problem is still unsolved.
 
The outdoor barrel sauna I recently did also had the 'no GFCI' in the manufacturers instructions.
It was going about 70 feet from the house and they also wanted a 120V GFCI receptacle so
I ran a outdoor feeder to small 4X4 post and set a 4 circuit spa style panel next to the sauna.
Going by the NEC definition of a dwelling unit the spa panel is not on a dwelling unit, its on another structure (a post) so the way I read it no GFCI is required.
The homewoner opted for a GFPE breaker to protect the sauna.
 
tortuga said:
The outdoor barrel sauna I recently did also had the 'no GFCI' in the manufacturers instructions.
It was going about 70 feet from the house and they also wanted a 120V GFCI receptacle so
I ran a outdoor feeder to small 4X4 post and set a 4 circuit spa style panel next to the sauna.
Going by the NEC definition of a dwelling unit the spa panel is not on a dwelling unit, its on another structure (a post) so the way I read it no GFCI is required.
The homewoner opted for a GFPE breaker to protect the sauna.
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Was the circuit 50 amps or less ? And if so you didn’t feel that 210.8(f) applied to your installation? I feel the intent of the code is to have us gfci protect a outdoor outlet outlets serving equipment with a load of 50 amps or less and 150 volts to ground or less on the property on a dwelling of a dwellingl


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Jaybone812 said:
Was the circuit 50 amps or less ?
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I ran a 60A feeder from a dwelling unit to a post (structure) set ground rods and a small panel.
From that post I ran a 40A branch circuit a short distance to the barrel sauna.
Jaybone812 said:
And if so you didn’t feel that 210.8(f) applied to your installation?
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Hmmm I suppose a barrel sauna could be considered an accessory building, its about the size of a pre built small shed, and since the sauna is hard wired the outlet is in the accessory building, but now the branch circuit originates at the post. :unsure:
 
tortuga said:
I ran a 60A feeder from a dwelling unit to a post (structure) set ground rods and a small panel.
From that post I ran a 40A branch circuit a short distance to the barrel sauna.

Hmmm I suppose a barrel sauna could be considered an accessory building, its about the size of a pre built small shed, and since the sauna is hard wired the outlet is in the accessory building, but now the branch circuit originates at the post. :unsure:
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Thsts where I was going with my comment I’m glad you picked up on it . Would you define that sauna as an accessory building ? I think it could be, and if so 210.8(f) would apply , but you make a valid point because the circuit originates at a location other than the dwelling ,but now im aware of the feeder , that touches on another part of my previous comment , it doesn’t originate at the location of the dwelling unit but still originates at or I should say on the property of the dwelling . So does it still apply ?? I would say yes based on my interpretation


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Jaybone812 said:
Thsts where I was going with my comment I’m glad you picked up on it . Would you define that sauna as an accessory building ? I think it could be, and if so 210.8(f) would apply , but you make a valid point because the circuit originates at a location other than the dwelling ,but now im aware of the feeder , that touches on another part of my previous comment , it doesn’t originate at the location of the dwelling unit but still originates at or I should say on the property of the dwelling . So does it still apply ?? I would say yes based on my interpretation


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That would be an AHJ call, where I am in Oregon the state amended the 210.8(F) to read:
Outdoor Receptacles
All outdoor general-purpose receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, shall be provided with GFCI protection.

Informational Note: This requirement does not apply to specific-use receptacles that are regulated by other sections in this code such as 551.71.
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So it would not be required here anyway.
 
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