- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Peter, I couldn't agree more. Nice job with the concise summary.
12-2 NM cable as switch.
- Thread starter masterjohn
- Start date
- Status
electricmanscott said:Jim W in Tampa said:[.But if you live in MA. they will change the rules to what ever they like best.
Jim try as you might but you will never be able to bring MA down to the level of nonsense you have there in Florida. It just will not happen.
If an electrican needs to see a white wire reidentified or they can't figure out what they are doing they deserve to get whacked when it turns out to be hot.
If he knows what he is doing, it won't be hot while he is working on it anyway. And yes, if everyone used same thoughts and wiring methods as me it would make troubleshooting a lot easier.
:twisted:pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Peter D
" the NEC has no business making rules for people outside of the trade."
I agree with this statment 100000000000%
" the NEC has no business making rules for people outside of the trade."
I agree with this statment 100000000000%
big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
I actually thought it was code compliant not to reidentify a white when it was used as a switched conductor--it's been a while since I've read that article. I assumed the logic was as stated here: If you have two wires in a switch box, one black, one white, and you're confused, you need to close that box back up and find another job.
My $0.02: This isn't to say a white wire should never be re-identified. I think in cases such as 240V, 2W circuits in a panel, or in cases where there are neutral wires running through a box as well as the switched white, it's best to re-identify. It lessens the chance of someone confusing a hot white wire with a neutral conductor.
Interesting anecdote: The company where I work now has a policy of pulling 3-wire to all dead-end 1P switches. They reason that it is confusing to open a switch box and see a black wire and a white wire, and by using their method, you have a black wire and a red wire (and a spare white).
As it stands now, if I didn't rough the circuit, every time I open a switch box and see 3-wire I have to take 5 minutes to go and try to figure out if it's a dead-end 1P or a dead-end 3-way. Yeah, it really eases the confusion. :roll:
-John
My $0.02: This isn't to say a white wire should never be re-identified. I think in cases such as 240V, 2W circuits in a panel, or in cases where there are neutral wires running through a box as well as the switched white, it's best to re-identify. It lessens the chance of someone confusing a hot white wire with a neutral conductor.
Interesting anecdote: The company where I work now has a policy of pulling 3-wire to all dead-end 1P switches. They reason that it is confusing to open a switch box and see a black wire and a white wire, and by using their method, you have a black wire and a red wire (and a spare white).
As it stands now, if I didn't rough the circuit, every time I open a switch box and see 3-wire I have to take 5 minutes to go and try to figure out if it's a dead-end 1P or a dead-end 3-way. Yeah, it really eases the confusion. :roll:
-John
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
big john said:
At the price of wire today i would not be wasting 3 wire where not needed.Have seen guys do this just to get a red wire and they cut or cap the white.I am surprised at some of our normally full code compliant members taking the attitude of not following nec on this.As i been told before if you dont like a code then make proposal to change it.Not sure how many inspectors would tag this violation but why even take the chance.2 wires at a switch would not confuse many but at the other end it just might.Its asking for a mis splice but then they can waste time fixing it as they have saved hours by not remarking. :roll:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
big john,
Don
It was until the 2002 code.
I believe that there is a proposal for the 2008 code that would require this if the proposal is accepted.
Don
Jim W in Tampa said:
What member said they would not follow the applicable code?
You said earlier that any half a$$ed electrical worker would know what the white wire would be doing, so who would make this "mis splice"?
Would it be you, a helper you trained, or a DIYer?
BTW, when were you trained to re-identify these conductors as you stated earlier in the thread?
Jim, the point of the latter part of this thread is not that it is required by the NEC, (it is as pointed out by Pierre in the second post) the point is that it is unnecessary and an insult to those of us who understand wiring methods and installations.
If you and your fellow workers need to re-identify a white conductor, I say go for it and please continue to do so even if the requirement is dropped some day.
I would say the rest of us and our crews won't bother.
Peter, I agree with Pierre, excellent post.
Roger
Practical matter
Practical matter
Lets try a little shift to as to why it is a good idea to identify a wire, regardless if its code or not. I agree that any real electrician would "know" what a white wire is doing but, what if:
Its Friday afternoon and I send a man on a residential service call. After he arrives, he two ways me from his van to inform me that the customer has hacked a 4gang switch box in an attempt to install some dimmers. It just so happens that 3p and 1p switches are/were intermixed and the customer cant remember in what order they were installed. The breaker is tripped and all the white and black and red wires are separated and hanging out of the box. To make things even more troublesome, this particular 4gang is one of those "junction city" boxes with multiple taps/joints and circuits coming and going.
My electrician is not wanting to miss his Miller time, but he will have to sift thru the box and do what any good electrician can to repair things, but it would be easier and faster if white feeds were re-identifed so that fellow electricians would not waste time in such cases. By [not] marking a white switch feed in such a case then you cant tell what its doing by sight alone.
We have all been there. Yes, I can charge it all to the customer but from an electricians point of view, I woudnt want to miss my Miller time either. And as a practical matter, I woudnt want to stand in front of General Contractors and Owners with a stupid look on my face and try to explain why we have to go back thru a sub division and re-identify a bunch of white wires after some "hot shot" inspector went spaz on my Electrical Co in front of everyone. No, just mark the wire. We have a saying around here, "the electrician that services an installation, just might be you". So do it right.
2cents.
Practical matter
Lets try a little shift to as to why it is a good idea to identify a wire, regardless if its code or not. I agree that any real electrician would "know" what a white wire is doing but, what if:
Its Friday afternoon and I send a man on a residential service call. After he arrives, he two ways me from his van to inform me that the customer has hacked a 4gang switch box in an attempt to install some dimmers. It just so happens that 3p and 1p switches are/were intermixed and the customer cant remember in what order they were installed. The breaker is tripped and all the white and black and red wires are separated and hanging out of the box. To make things even more troublesome, this particular 4gang is one of those "junction city" boxes with multiple taps/joints and circuits coming and going.
My electrician is not wanting to miss his Miller time, but he will have to sift thru the box and do what any good electrician can to repair things, but it would be easier and faster if white feeds were re-identifed so that fellow electricians would not waste time in such cases. By [not] marking a white switch feed in such a case then you cant tell what its doing by sight alone.
We have all been there. Yes, I can charge it all to the customer but from an electricians point of view, I woudnt want to miss my Miller time either. And as a practical matter, I woudnt want to stand in front of General Contractors and Owners with a stupid look on my face and try to explain why we have to go back thru a sub division and re-identify a bunch of white wires after some "hot shot" inspector went spaz on my Electrical Co in front of everyone. No, just mark the wire. We have a saying around here, "the electrician that services an installation, just might be you". So do it right.
2cents.
chicar
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster,Pa
Please say that again. These guys are talking like every job they had to troubleshoot was gravy. Your examples are so cosy. In the real world you get a birds nest. And yes, I also mark branch circuit wires with wire numbers. [commercial]
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Practical matter
Re: Practical matter
First of all the idea of always feeding via the white is based on three things:
A) The NEC exception to a white never being hot is because that's how cable is made, and we have to be allowed to use materials as manufactured.
2) The hot-fed end of the white wire would be a splice to one or more blacks, and this would be a connection normally never disturbed in the future.
D) If the load end of the white wire is at the fixture or receptacle, that would mean the load is supplied by two white wires. Danger, boys and girls, danger!
In either a single- or multi-gang switch box, any white that was removed from a switch should be the hot feed. Even with several switches, the only options for a switch-connected white are hot feed or traveler.
The occasional white traveler, only necessary where there is a single 3-way fed from, and returned to, the load outlet box (i.e., the feed and load electrically between the 3-ways), is easily avoided.
In just about every multi-gang switch box, the switches are fed hot in this box, and the "other" switch usually feeds the load. Otherwise, any white would be for a 3-way, and should be the hot feed.
When faced with the DIY'er's every-wire-disconnected multi-gang switch box, the damage was done by not (a) identifying which wire was on the common (identified) terminal of each switch, and grouping them.
Eliminating white wires on switches would not, in my opinion, alter any of this. It's just another color now. We would be no closer to knowing which wire belongs on which terminal of which switch. YMMV
Re: Practical matter
I sorta do agree, but mostly not. Here's why (disclaimer: my opinion):Gmack said:
First of all the idea of always feeding via the white is based on three things:
A) The NEC exception to a white never being hot is because that's how cable is made, and we have to be allowed to use materials as manufactured.
2) The hot-fed end of the white wire would be a splice to one or more blacks, and this would be a connection normally never disturbed in the future.
D) If the load end of the white wire is at the fixture or receptacle, that would mean the load is supplied by two white wires. Danger, boys and girls, danger!
In either a single- or multi-gang switch box, any white that was removed from a switch should be the hot feed. Even with several switches, the only options for a switch-connected white are hot feed or traveler.
The occasional white traveler, only necessary where there is a single 3-way fed from, and returned to, the load outlet box (i.e., the feed and load electrically between the 3-ways), is easily avoided.
In just about every multi-gang switch box, the switches are fed hot in this box, and the "other" switch usually feeds the load. Otherwise, any white would be for a 3-way, and should be the hot feed.
When faced with the DIY'er's every-wire-disconnected multi-gang switch box, the damage was done by not (a) identifying which wire was on the common (identified) terminal of each switch, and grouping them.
Eliminating white wires on switches would not, in my opinion, alter any of this. It's just another color now. We would be no closer to knowing which wire belongs on which terminal of which switch. YMMV
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
peter d said:Hold on a second here guys. I think Jim is on to something. We should keep dumbing down the NEC so it's more understandable to the next generation of students coming out of American public schools. That way, when they decide to become electricians, their self esteem won't be damaged because they can't understand a technical document.
Actually
Actually
Larry, we have all had to get down on a knee and shine a light into a multi gang and stare thru a nest to trace wires into the same sheath. Having done that, it would be easier if the white wire was marked to indicate switch feed. Otherwise I have to takes several steps to "prove" that the nm is fulltime power/breaker, junction/joint or feed and load switch legs.
I respectively disagree that all/most multi gangs are wired typical and therefore don't benefit from wire marking.
Remember my scenario, the breaker was also tripped. The customer may have taken the white switch feed, thinking it was a white/neutral and made joints with other white/neutrals and thrown the breaker. POP. We have all done that one. Why? Because the wire was white. If it had been marked then the chances of taking a "hot" marked wire and connecting it to grounded conductors would be significantly decreased at both switch and light outlets.
Just as an aside here, I would say that "training" an apprentice to cheat on something small/code will later encourage him to cheat on large/code. It could cost him or someone else bodily harm or death.
Actually
Larry, we have all had to get down on a knee and shine a light into a multi gang and stare thru a nest to trace wires into the same sheath. Having done that, it would be easier if the white wire was marked to indicate switch feed. Otherwise I have to takes several steps to "prove" that the nm is fulltime power/breaker, junction/joint or feed and load switch legs.
I respectively disagree that all/most multi gangs are wired typical and therefore don't benefit from wire marking.
Remember my scenario, the breaker was also tripped. The customer may have taken the white switch feed, thinking it was a white/neutral and made joints with other white/neutrals and thrown the breaker. POP. We have all done that one. Why? Because the wire was white. If it had been marked then the chances of taking a "hot" marked wire and connecting it to grounded conductors would be significantly decreased at both switch and light outlets.
Just as an aside here, I would say that "training" an apprentice to cheat on something small/code will later encourage him to cheat on large/code. It could cost him or someone else bodily harm or death.
Gmac, if you and your hired hands need colors and pictures then go for it, nobody here will stop you. :lol:
BTW, in regards to your example;
The service call that was interfering with Miller time was caused by a DIYer in the first place, with this being the case, why would you think this DIYer would have correctly re-identified the conductors you or your employee showed up to fix? :?
See Peter's earlier posts. 8)
If you will take the time to read the entire thread, you will also see none of the members here are advocating "cheating" as you rudely imply.
Roger
BTW, in regards to your example;
The service call that was interfering with Miller time was caused by a DIYer in the first place, with this being the case, why would you think this DIYer would have correctly re-identified the conductors you or your employee showed up to fix? :?
See Peter's earlier posts. 8)
If you will take the time to read the entire thread, you will also see none of the members here are advocating "cheating" as you rudely imply.
Roger
Having Doughts Roger
Having Doughts Roger
Its "conductors" Roger. Check your spelling. You seem upset. Is the "code secret" of knowing what a white wire does, the limit of your experience. Couple that with the NEC and your misguided attempt to ignore it over such a minor but reasonable change.
Dont be so **** quick. **** like that gets people hurt. Consider your crew and yourself. Do you want some cheese with your "whine".
Dont presume to lecture me "sonny" . Im going on 41 years in the trade.
SLOW DOWN! and listen instead of posting jokes.
Edited language by Ryan.
Gmack: Please mind your language.
Having Doughts Roger
Its "conductors" Roger. Check your spelling. You seem upset. Is the "code secret" of knowing what a white wire does, the limit of your experience. Couple that with the NEC and your misguided attempt to ignore it over such a minor but reasonable change.
Dont be so **** quick. **** like that gets people hurt. Consider your crew and yourself. Do you want some cheese with your "whine".
Dont presume to lecture me "sonny" . Im going on 41 years in the trade.
SLOW DOWN! and listen instead of posting jokes.
Edited language by Ryan.
Gmack: Please mind your language.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
Just how many states have a writen change to this nec code ? Not asking about inforcing just the ones that legally removed it.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Actually
Re: Actually
There shjould have been no reason for someone replacing switches to disturb any joints. Besides, unless they've been played with, a wire that has been untwisted from a joint looks different than one removed from a terminal. If we're on the heels of the DIYer, this must be a T&M job.
If every conductor of every cable had been disconnected, there's only one solution: The extension cord and wiggy. Test for the supplying cable by looking for a grounded white with one wiggy test lead in the hot slot of the cord. There should be only one grounded white; it's black is the hot feed in from the source.
Re: Actually
I took the all-wires-hanging-out scenario to mean that capped joints in the box had not been disturbed. We were given the impression that only the switches had been removed, and the neutrals and incoming and outgoing hots were still intact.Gmack said:
There shjould have been no reason for someone replacing switches to disturb any joints. Besides, unless they've been played with, a wire that has been untwisted from a joint looks different than one removed from a terminal. If we're on the heels of the DIYer, this must be a T&M job.
If every conductor of every cable had been disconnected, there's only one solution: The extension cord and wiggy. Test for the supplying cable by looking for a grounded white with one wiggy test lead in the hot slot of the cord. There should be only one grounded white; it's black is the hot feed in from the source.
The thing that kills me about all this, is how we are to remark so you know its a hot wire. That white wire can quite possibly be just as dangerous even if its not a "hot" wire, in the event current is "looking for a return path" My point is the white wire is not harmless be it neutral or hot.
Re: Having Doughts Roger
Re: Having Doughts Roger
Okay, read my post again, and do tell where my spelling error is; (notice it has not been edited) and while you are at it, you may want to check your spelling of "Doughts", "Dont", and "Im" :lol: :lol:
BTW, You have a Potty Mouth.
Maybe you should heed your own advice. :wink:
Roger
Re: Having Doughts Roger
Gmack said:
Okay, read my post again, and do tell where my spelling error is; (notice it has not been edited) and while you are at it, you may want to check your spelling of "Doughts", "Dont", and "Im" :lol: :lol:
More correctly bad training (or trainers) get people hurt.
BTW, You have a Potty Mouth.
My self and my crew understand what conductors do regardless of color or flavor of others "whine" choices. :lol:
Have you ever heard of the trade person that has been fixing the same mistakes for many (maybe 41) years and thinks he is an expert ?
Maybe you should heed your own advice. :wink:
Roger
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Gmack, have you noticed how many posts Roger has by any chance?
He doesn't need me to defend him but I will anyway. Roger is one of the most knowledgeable and respected members of this forum. Many people, myself included, have benefited from the experience and wisdom he has shared over the years.
He doesn't need me to defend him but I will anyway. Roger is one of the most knowledgeable and respected members of this forum. Many people, myself included, have benefited from the experience and wisdom he has shared over the years.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
I agree, Roger is one of the most respected members of this forum. That is interesting to me, because each member/moderator brings something to this forum that someone else doesn't.
Anyway. Gmack, have you noticed that sometimes the marking we put on at the first installation fades over time? Have you taken into consideration that spanking white neutrals become discolored relatively quickly when present over a lighting fixture?
In my living room, less than a year ago I added two ceiling lights to my living room. A couple months ago I added some recessed cans to that switchleg. When I took down the fixture to add the extension of the circuit, I was amazed to find the neutrals resembling a white that had been colored with a marker running out of ink. They had been tanned by a couple of 60W lamps in an amazingly short time!
Should I have slathered them in white correction fluid to prevent someone from thinking that it had been re-identified? I don't think so.
One other thing:
Everybody's view is in question. The discussion of that view is why we're all here. Welcome to the forum.
Anyway. Gmack, have you noticed that sometimes the marking we put on at the first installation fades over time? Have you taken into consideration that spanking white neutrals become discolored relatively quickly when present over a lighting fixture?
In my living room, less than a year ago I added two ceiling lights to my living room. A couple months ago I added some recessed cans to that switchleg. When I took down the fixture to add the extension of the circuit, I was amazed to find the neutrals resembling a white that had been colored with a marker running out of ink. They had been tanned by a couple of 60W lamps in an amazingly short time!
Should I have slathered them in white correction fluid to prevent someone from thinking that it had been re-identified? I don't think so.
One other thing:
Don't presume that due to 41 years experience, the greenest apprentice on this forum will not step forward to question a statement. Tenure has no bearing on the respect given on this forum. Help people, offer seasoned advice, be polite, and you achieve respect in this place.
Everybody's view is in question. The discussion of that view is why we're all here. Welcome to the forum.
- Status