- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Let's stay on topic.
#12 only?
- Thread starter laketime
- Start date
- Status
CopperTone
Senior Member
- Location
- MetroWest, MA
so bottom line is this. Using #12 is not a better job its just a design choice unless required by specifications of a particular job. You can overload and/or underload a #12 and a #14 cirucuit.
If you were competitively bidding a job and you "chose" to use #12 on your own then your price would be higher and could cause you to lose the job.
If you were competitively bidding a job and you "chose" to use #12 on your own then your price would be higher and could cause you to lose the job.
My opinion is that a blanket policy of using all #12 in a dwelling unit is a waste. I'd much rather have well thought out circuitry using #12 and #14 as required then one wired with a "dummy" plan of using all #12 so mistakes don't get made. I've been in a large share of tract homes wired my marginally skilled laborers and they can figure out how to wire a home by code. Why can't the skilled electricians of the world do the same?
That is good, and all work should be well planned, taking into consideration that code is a min standard, not even close to a wiring job that allows for future, but good enough to pass an inspection, and get paid, but the real question is are you building a tract house, or a custom home, the tract housing is usually min code, semi skilled labor, and little if any effort put into design, so when the new owner of a tract home wants that beautiful new fixture that draws 12A hung in the main entrance, to replace that 2 lamp 120W fixture, they have to rewire, or when they add recess lighting, they have to rewire or run new circuits, my thought is, most of the code min work, comes from designing for price. There will always be circuits that are 14 and efficent for the purpose.
You can reduce the price two ways: Fewer circuits means less home runs means less cabling.
And all that means less labor.
quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
my apologies guys for my bad attitude...im truly regretful. however, I dont shop at the box stores because my business is a service business. I cannot afford to buy junk. We repair many newer installs because of faulty and/or poor workmanship. My customers depend on us ( ps we have over 1,000 clients BECAUSE of my strict policies of quality materials and workmanship) I dont do BULK construction plus BRAZORIA COUNTY DOES NOT ALLOW #14 FOR DWELLINGS...THEREFORE THE PRICE OF 12/2 AT MY REPUTABLE AND DEPENDABLE SUPPLIERS IS 64.75 FOR 250 FT AND 78.50 FOR 14/2. Is it fair? most of you would prob say no, but in my area this is how it is.
ps...seen 4 houses burn to the ground in last couple of years because the contractor was all about cheap. cheap materials and WORST OF ALL...cheap labor. so when I hear guys talking cheap it strikes a nerve. I understand cost analysis and how to make a profit. If your AHJ allows #14, then use it, as long as its cheaper than 12/2
ps...seen 4 houses burn to the ground in last couple of years because the contractor was all about cheap. cheap materials and WORST OF ALL...cheap labor. so when I hear guys talking cheap it strikes a nerve. I understand cost analysis and how to make a profit. If your AHJ allows #14, then use it, as long as its cheaper than 12/2
.............ps...seen 4 houses burn to the ground in last couple of years because the contractor was all about cheap. cheap materials and WORST OF ALL...cheap labor. so when I hear guys talking cheap it strikes a nerve. I understand cost analysis and how to make a profit. If your AHJ allows #14, then use it, as long as its cheaper than 12/2
There's a huge difference between being cheap and being economical/financially viable.
But keep in mind that you can't replace all the wiring & circuits normally done with 12 mono-a-mono for 14. You'll need more circuits, wire, labor, etc.
quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
100% agree. strictly a design choice. but in my area we cant use it, even for smokes. we cant use #14 NM period, hence the cheaper price on #12 NM. One of those house fires started in a cieling fan box. Master Electrician installed new cieling fan with 12/3 nm, pancake box, no cable connector or bushing, cut the ground wire off, installed fan in a hurry. The rest is obvious. Family lost everything....
100% agree. strictly a design choice. but in my area we cant use it, even for smokes. we cant use #14 NM period, hence the cheaper price on #12 NM. One of those house fires started in a cieling fan box. Master Electrician installed new cieling fan with 12/3 nm, pancake box, no cable connector or bushing, cut the ground wire off, installed fan in a hurry. The rest is obvious. Family lost everything....
So is the AHJ going to outlaw #12 now?
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
No, ceiling fans. :roll:So is the AHJ going to outlaw #12 now?
quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
My point is cheap...er is not always better. My post on the house was off the original topic of OP. #14 makes sense to me with smokes and certain other applications, but I cant use it here. The inspector is a master electrician who cannot be influenced; so unfortunately I have to install per his will. Maybe he owns stock in the copper & wire industry.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
My point is cheap...er is not always better. My post on the house was off the original topic of OP. #14 makes sense to me with smokes and certain other applications, but I cant use it here. The inspector is a master electrician who cannot be influenced; so unfortunately I have to install per his will. Maybe he owns stock in the copper & wire industry.
Wait...are you saying this "all #12 requirement" is simply something an inspector wants or is it actually a written building code requirement you can go look up at the city hall?
quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
Its a city amendment to the NEC which has stood for many years AND many citys around here also adopted this amendment as well. The city is Lake Jackson Texas....look it up if you wish.
quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
ps... "all #12" would be quite dangerous dont you think? Maybe "#12 minimum" would better describe the issue at hand.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Not looking to mess wit ya - but I find wacky building codes interesting - you do have some wacky ones there....
Especially since it seems to be written in a Texan accent... Not exactly out of the NEC style manual.... Ref
support.:grin:
- Location
- Massachusetts
No we do not know that, 14 AWG is rated 20 to 25 amps and 12 AWG is rated 25 to 30 amps.
See 310.16
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quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
Not looking to mess wit ya - but I find wacky building codes interesting - you do have some wacky ones there....
Ref
Sorry bud...Texas born and Texas bred...this inspector just so happens to be a friend of mine. And by the way, its called a Texas draw...not an accent. Its a brotherhood down here, so I'll suggest to any of you who may want to come to Texas to work, bring your "accent".
FINAL ANSWER: #14 MIGHT MAKE SENSE IN SOME AREAS, BUT HERE WITH SO MUCH AREA NOT COVERED BY AN AHJ...#12 IS SAFEST. IMHO.
QUINN IS OUT
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
JWinters
Member
- Location
- Connecticut
Ive never seen all twelve wire in a house, but the other replies make sense.
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