2014 NEC 210.52 question

[Pinzgauer]

Okay, in that case you were correct about the cabinet receptacle placement and have the needed receptacles for the wall space; however, you have just failed on working space for that cabinet.

IMO, a generator transfer switch would apply to the following:

110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment. Access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.

(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operat- ing at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.

Yeah.... The moment you asked the question I knew where you were going. And you're right...
Have to figure something here....

 

[jumper]

Yeah.... The moment you asked the question I knew where you were going. And you're right...
Have to figure something here....

If I had to guess, I would say switch is gonna get moved and cabinet stays. Prolly cheaper, quicker, and less damage.

How did it up there anyways? Not a common spot for a genny ATS.

 

[LarryFine]

I agree with Infinity, that no receptacle is required in either location. A voluntarily-placed receptacle is acceptable in either location.

 

[infinity]

I agree with Infinity, that no receptacle is required in either location. A voluntarily-placed receptacle is acceptable in either location.

I agree too that you can install a receptacle in either location if you so desire it's just not required.

Welcome Back Larry.

 

[charlie b]

Am I correct then when I say that most of you believe there's no requirement for a receptacle within the cabinet space as long as there's receptacles within 6' to the left and right of it.

I can't speak for "most of you," but my answer is no. Let me explain:

. . . there's no requirement for a receptacle within the cabinet space. . . .

That I agree with.

. . . as long as there's receptacles within 6' to the left and right of it.

That part is not relevant. The spaces to the left and right need receptacles on their own. The presence of those receptacles to the left and right is not what makes it OK to leave out a receptacle in the cabinet space.​

 

[Pinzgauer]

I can't speak for "most of you," but my answer is no. Let me explain:

That I agree with.
That part is not relevant. The spaces to the left and right need receptacles on their own. The presence of those receptacles to the left and right is not what makes it OK to leave out a receptacle in the cabinet space.​

OK... I'm all ears and I apologize if I seem dense when I ask you to clarify. I understand that the receptacles to the side have nothing to do with the cabinet space. But I am not reading, again my apologies, if you say it is or isn't required within the cabinet space. And if you believe it's required, then can it be above the bench and not in the baseboard.
Maybe I should have asked the question as simple as I just did to begin with... LOL

 

[infinity]

What Charlie is saying is that there are no receptacles required for the area occupied by the cabinet and that has nothing to do with the receptacles to the left and right of the cabinet. You still need are receptacle to the left and to the right of the cabinet within 6' of the cabinet.

 

[charlie b]

Rob has it right. To save you from searching through all the earlier posts, here is a quote from my post #12:

. . . but my opinion (based on 2017) is that the "thing that looks a lot like a wall" that is above this cabinet is not "wall space," in the context of 210.52. Therefore, no receptacle is required at all. That said, a receptacle placed in either location in the photo would be allowed by code.

​

 

[david]

What Charlie is saying is that there are no receptacles required for the area occupied by the cabinet and that has nothing to do with the receptacles to the left and right of the cabinet. You still need are receptacle to the left and to the right of the cabinet within 6' of the cabinet.

You still need are receptacle to the left and to the right of the cabinet within 6' of the cabinet.

I disagree with the six ft part of this if a rec is placed in the baseboard or in the wall space above the cabinet. in that case it can effect the spacing requirements of the rec. to the left and right of the cabinet.

Nothing that i see in the code would not allow a 12 ft. measurement off of a non required rec. as long as it is usable along the floor line.

So in that scene I agree the rec requirement to the left and right do not effect the rec. placement in discussion, However placing a rec. in that space can allow for a 12 ft. measurement from that rec. in the wall space requirement to the left and right of the cabinet edge since the rec in discussion is not installed with in a cabinet.

This could also be a judgement call and the authority may disagree. Just threw this in because i had the thought how would placing a rec. in that space effect the required rec. in the wall space to the left and the right of the cabinet

 

[infinity]

I disagree with the six ft part of this if a rec is placed in the baseboard or in the wall space above the cabinet. in that case it can effect the spacing requirements of the rec. to the left and right of the cabinet.

Nothing that i see in the code would not allow a 12 ft. measurement off of a non required rec. as long as it is usable along the floor line.

So in that scene I agree the rec requirement to the left and right do not effect the rec. placement in discussion, However placing a rec. in that space can allow for a 12 ft. measurement from that rec. in the wall space requirement to the left and right of the cabinet edge since the rec in discussion is not installed with in a cabinet.

This could also be a judgement call and the authority may disagree. Just threw this in because i had the thought how would placing a rec. in that space effect the required rec. in the wall space to the left and the right of the cabinet

OK we can agree to disagree.

The wording is clear, once the wall line is broken you need to start over with the 6' spacing.

210.52(A)(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no
point measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall
space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including
space measured around corners) and unbroken along
the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fire-
places, and fixed cabinets

 

[david]

OK we can agree to disagree.

The wording is clear, once the wall line is broken you need to start over with the 6' spacing.

Thats correct, so you start over from the rec to the left of the cabinet measure to the left along the floor line. say the measurement to the left cabinet edge is 7 or 8 feet, but the rec in the base board still measures no more than 12 feet, i will agree to disagree as you said, there would be no wall space further than 6 ft. from a rec.

your not crossing an opening in a door way and your not landing in the middle of a fire place. you are simply measuring the floor line to a usable rec.

 

[infinity]

Thats correct, so you start over from the rec to the left of the cabinet measure to the left along the floor line. say the measurement to the left cabinet edge is 7 or 8 feet, but the rec in the base board still measures no more than 12 feet, i will agree to disagree as you said, there would be no wall space further than 6 ft. from a rec.

your not crossing an opening in a door way and your not landing in the middle of a fire place. you are simply measuring the floor line to a usable rec.

So would you agree that if the area represented by the cabinet were a doorway then you would need a receptacle within 6' from the edges to both the right and the left?

I agree with you in principle but the flaw in your thinking is that the cabinet counts as wall space when it does not. According to the wording of that section the cabinet is no different than a doorway. If you install a floor outlet in the middle of the doorway that wouldn't count either.

From a practical perspective using the photo in the OP I completely agree with you although the wording of the NEC does not support it.

 

[david]

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:

(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or

We already know that a cabinet is disqualified as wall space, but the code specifically states as long as the rec is not in a cabinet it can be used to satisfy the requirement.

 

[infinity]

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:

(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or

We already know that a cabinet is disqualified as wall space, but the code specifically states as long as the rec is not in a cabinet it can be used to satisfy the requirement.

Where does it state that?

 

[david]

Where does it state that?

Where does the code state that a rec to satisfy the rule has to be placed no greater than 5 and 1/2 ft above the floor.

it states that by saying rec greater than 5 1/2 ft are disqualified.

the code sates rec in a cabinet are disqualified.

 

[LarryFine]

I disagree with the six ft part of this if a rec is placed in the baseboard or in the wall space above the cabinet. in that case it can effect the spacing requirements of the rec. to the left and right of the cabinet.

Nothing that i see in the code would not allow a 12 ft. measurement off of a non required rec. as long as it is usable along the floor line.

So in that scene I agree the rec requirement to the left and right do not effect the rec. placement in discussion, However placing a rec. in that space can allow for a 12 ft. measurement from that rec. in the wall space requirement to the left and right of the cabinet edge since the rec in discussion is not installed with in a cabinet.

This could also be a judgement call and the authority may disagree. Just threw this in because i had the thought how would placing a rec. in that space effect the required rec. in the wall space to the left and the right of the cabinet

We were stating that, without a receptacle in the space we're discussing, the 6' rule applies. Of course, with a receptacle in the space, the 12' measurement applies.

 

[infinity]

So would you agree that if the area represented by the cabinet were a doorway then you would need a receptacle within 6' from the edges to both the right and the left?

I agree with you in principle but the flaw in your thinking is that the cabinet counts as wall space when it does not. According to the wording of that section the cabinet is no different than a doorway. If you install a floor outlet in the middle of the doorway that wouldn't count either.

From a practical perspective using the photo in the OP I completely agree with you although the wording of the NEC does not support it.

Where does the code state that a rec to satisfy the rule has to be placed no greater than 5 and 1/2 ft above the floor.

it states that by saying rec greater than 5 1/2 ft are disqualified.

the code sates rec in a cabinet are disqualified.

I don't follow how this is applicable. Back to my earlier question, would you agree that if the area represented by the cabinet were a doorway then you would need a receptacle within 6' from the edges to both the right and the left?

 

[david]

We were stating that, without a receptacle in the space we're discussing, the 6' rule applies. Of course, with a receptacle in the space, the 12' measurement applies.

Actually that’s what apparently you and I are saying, there is disagreement to the 12 ft spacing being allowed

 

[david]

I don't follow how this is applicable. Back to my earlier question, would you agree that if the area represented by the cabinet were a doorway then you would need a receptacle within 6' from the edges to both the right and the left?

I am not debating that the wall space to the left of the cabinet. It is a wall space two ft or greater in size.

it is a separate wall space. a door way is an opening in a the wall space, a fire place breaks the wall space, a cabinet breaks the wall space.

The code specifically addresses cabinets as not having to have a rec with in the floor line measurement even if the cabinet is two ft or grater in length.

the code also specifically addresses rec. placed with in a cabinet stating rec with in a cabinet cannot be usable to the wall space requirement.

Is the rec. in discussion placed in a cabinet?

 

[david]

This discussion is similar to a discussion of the wall space adjacent to a kitchen counter rec.

You could use a kitchen counter rec. to satisfy the wall space requirement until the code specifically addressed the wall space adjacent to a kitchen counter top rec.

A cabinet rec. is specifically addressed in 210.52 in relationship to the wall space requirements