2020 NEC AFCI

[mbrooke]

Supply and demand factors into it as well. By putting emphasis on getting AFCI's to be required by code you somewhat secure the demand part. (whether they do what you say they are suppose to do or not)

I agree- there would be no demand without the code mandate. Can you imagine the discussions in forums like this if they were not mandated?

OP: 'so I saw this fire perversion breaker at my supply house/HD. I thought the purpose of circuit breakers was to prevent fires. Anyway, anyone ever try them? Just a gimmick or real stuff?'

R1: 'Manufacturers claim that they are supposed to catch arcing that regular breakers do not.'

R2: 'I installed a few for a customer who insisted on them. They are horrible. The things would trip every time a motor started. Eventually the customer wanted them out more than I did.'

R3: 'Put a few in my home- nothing spectacular here. Maybe I can get discount insurance now?'

R4: 'I'm a sucker for advertising. Tried a few and they would trip for no reason. Sent them back, no thanks, I'll stick with normal breakers'

R5: 'these are a joe DIY gimmick, they are just super sensitive breakers.'

R6: 'Yahhh, went to HD for an emergency call, my supply house closed. There was like at least 8 of them that were returned '

R7: ' they are gimmicks, you can not sustain an arc at 120 volts most of the time'

R8: 'Probably a HD marketing scheme. Remember those Toto toilets?'

..... you get the picture. Eventually manufactures would discontinue them altogether.

and if you don't replace the consumed carbon it will not be sustained. Just like when welding with a stick or wire feed welder - if you don't continue to feed material into the arc - it eventually will go out.

Allow me to introduce this piece of truth :thumbsup:

 

[Adamjamma]

RCD is not AFCI

RCD is not AFCI

I am studying part 18 BS7671 code in Britain. Also keeping track of International Code because of Jamaica. As such, and since I am building my own home in Jamaica and want it done right, I have had a lot of studying going on over terms, etc.
So, though I am mainly just a student, I have this to put in. RCD is actually the same as GFCI, but I believe that Schneider has stated that the European and American way of fixing the problem are attacked differently due to the voltage. However, I can be wrong.
That said, Europe, or at least England, have gone to a system of requiring RCD on almost every circuit, but they have several ways of doing it. They also have Arc Fault breakers but do not use them as much, partly I feel due to space in the breaker box. Due to the use of Ring circuits rather than all radials, they do not have as many circuits as many US and Caribbean homes have.
Thus, the requirement of AFCI would then require more space in already crowded breaker boxes. This might then require a second breaker panel, or consumer unit as they are ‘known here, which the government will not require unless it becomes a bigger safety issue.
That said, if the Grenfell Tower disaster somehow shows 5hat the refrigerator fire was started by an arc fault, like some think, it may cause the breaker manufacturers to create lower cost combination breakers to stop such from happening again, thus requiring the combination of AFCI/GFCI breakers, possibly easier in Britain where the panels are wired differently from the way they are in the USA, and where testing of residences is such a regular occurrence.
The paperwork trail and testing requirements for just adding a socket can look ridiculous to a handyman l8ke me, until they take the time to learn more of the reasoning behind such rules.

 

[kwired]

I am studying part 18 BS7671 code in Britain. Also keeping track of International Code because of Jamaica. As such, and since I am building my own home in Jamaica and want it done right, I have had a lot of studying going on over terms, etc.
So, though I am mainly just a student, I have this to put in. RCD is actually the same as GFCI, but I believe that Schneider has stated that the European and American way of fixing the problem are attacked differently due to the voltage. However, I can be wrong.
That said, Europe, or at least England, have gone to a system of requiring RCD on almost every circuit, but they have several ways of doing it. They also have Arc Fault breakers but do not use them as much, partly I feel due to space in the breaker box. Due to the use of Ring circuits rather than all radials, they do not have as many circuits as many US and Caribbean homes have.
Thus, the requirement of AFCI would then require more space in already crowded breaker boxes. This might then require a second breaker panel, or consumer unit as they are ‘known here, which the government will not require unless it becomes a bigger safety issue.
That said, if the Grenfell Tower disaster somehow shows 5hat the refrigerator fire was started by an arc fault, like some think, it may cause the breaker manufacturers to create lower cost combination breakers to stop such from happening again, thus requiring the combination of AFCI/GFCI breakers, possibly easier in Britain where the panels are wired differently from the way they are in the USA, and where testing of residences is such a regular occurrence.
The paperwork trail and testing requirements for just adding a socket can look ridiculous to a handyman l8ke me, until they take the time to learn more of the reasoning behind such rules.

Though RCD is about the same thing as GFCI, what it is more comparable to is "GFPE". GFCI has only 4-6 mA trip level where GFPE is 30 or even 100 mA trip level. GFCI is intended to protect people from shock hazard, GFPE is intended to protect equipment.

Early AFCI breakers needed to incorporate 30 mA GFPE protection in order to get listed. Now some have found ways (GE in particular) to meet listing requirements without needing to use GFPE function.

I would imagine if you had about the same VA for loads you should only need around half the number of branch circuits if they are all 240 volts vs 120 volts, and that the breaker panels in European dwellings typically are smaller (number of circuits wise) than in the US.

 

[mbrooke]

I am studying part 18 BS7671 code in Britain. Also keeping track of International Code because of Jamaica. As such, and since I am building my own home in Jamaica and want it done right, I have had a lot of studying going on over terms, etc.
So, though I am mainly just a student, I have this to put in. RCD is actually the same as GFCI, but I believe that Schneider has stated that the European and American way of fixing the problem are attacked differently due to the voltage. However, I can be wrong.
That said, Europe, or at least England, have gone to a system of requiring RCD on almost every circuit, but they have several ways of doing it. They also have Arc Fault breakers but do not use them as much, partly I feel due to space in the breaker box. Due to the use of Ring circuits rather than all radials, they do not have as many circuits as many US and Caribbean homes have.
Thus, the requirement of AFCI would then require more space in already crowded breaker boxes. This might then require a second breaker panel, or consumer unit as they are ‘known here, which the government will not require unless it becomes a bigger safety issue.

Excluding series arc faults, RCDs and conventional MCBs already provide arc fault protection.

That said, if the Grenfell Tower disaster somehow shows 5hat the refrigerator fire was started by an arc fault, like some think, it may cause the breaker manufacturers to create lower cost combination breakers to stop such from happening again, thus requiring the combination of AFCI/GFCI breakers, possibly easier in Britain where the panels are wired differently from the way they are in the USA, and where testing of residences is such a regular occurrence.
The paperwork trail and testing requirements for just adding a socket can look ridiculous to a handyman l8ke me, until they take the time to learn more of the reasoning behind such rules.

How was that determined though? I'm curious of the forensic process. While I doubt that fridge had flammable refrigerant, its possible that might have been the culprit as flammable refrigerants are common in some parts of the world.

 

[Dan L.]

If Only...

If Only...

I have a close friend who lost his house to a fire caused by a situation that could have been prevented by an AFCI breaker. A wire had been damaged by a nail that overtime created an arcing situation ultimately causing a fire that burned down the house. Thankfully no one was injured and they did have insurance. The cause was ruled as starting with that damaged wire.

 

[kwired]

I have a close friend who lost his house to a fire caused by a situation that could have been prevented by an AFCI breaker. A wire had been damaged by a nail that overtime created an arcing situation ultimately causing a fire that burned down the house. Thankfully no one was injured and they did have insurance. The cause was ruled as starting with that damaged wire.

Not saying you are wrong, but usually such evidence would be consumed in the fire and even be further disturbed by firefighters making it nearly impossible to determine such precision in the cause. They often will be able to say it started in a certain area with some confidence based on burn patterns, maybe even be able to say there was wiring in the vicinity that likely contributed, but often the board with the nail in it is consumed in the fire and so is the insulation on the conductor. Only chance of getting that one right is if there is arcing evidence on the conductors I guess.

 

[JFletcher]

Or this :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rfqqNg-uVE


Honestly, every lab video I question in that you have no idea what parameters are present. Also notice in the first video how the white sleeve fell and the arcing continued. Not saying AFCI don't trip on simulated/stimulated arcing, but I often wonder how that reflects the real world. Hollywood can make a fuel tank explode with a bullet, in the real world folks often can't. Sorry, bank robbers.

Forget afci technology, the next Incarnation would be a smart breaker... Would have an onboard chip that among other features, would have a program to detect wildly changing voltage and or current, indicative of a failing splice or load, and trip the breaker.

Similar features could include a program mode, where the breaker learns a new appliance's waveform, like a Keurig coffee pot or a Dyson vacuum cleaner, and accepts that as OK.

Receptacles could also be made as to include a heat sensor, that if tripped or overloaded, could shunt some current to ground causing a standard GFCI breaker to trip. This would detect glowing connections, and rather easily with current technology... All you need is a small thermocouple or bimetallic strip built into a receptacle... Should wind up the same cost or cheaper than a GFCI receptacle.

Yes, these ideas would be expensive, however they would actually work whereas AFCIs are expensive and do not work. I have no idea why manufacturers are so hung up on making afci Breakers do something that they cannot do. Come up with some technology that actually works... Heck, I'm not an engineer, and I spent about oh 3 minutes on the heat sensor receptacle idea.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The states can adopt the code in its entirety, or modify sections. For example, Michigan has an exemption or exception for arc fault breakers Virginia pushback adopting the 2014 NEC and the 2015 IBC, don't know why, but they may be working on deleting the requirements on Arc faults

yea I see how that works
Nobody in CA wants to get involved in anything code related.
I cant seem to get any support on any topic.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=191802

 

[mbrooke]

Forget afci technology, the next Incarnation would be a smart breaker... Would have an onboard chip that among other features, would have a program to detect wildly changing voltage and or current, indicative of a failing splice or load, and trip the breaker.

Similar features could include a program mode, where the breaker learns a new appliance's waveform, like a Keurig coffee pot or a Dyson vacuum cleaner, and accepts that as OK.

Receptacles could also be made as to include a heat sensor, that if tripped or overloaded, could shunt some current to ground causing a standard GFCI breaker to trip. This would detect glowing connections, and rather easily with current technology... All you need is a small thermocouple or bimetallic strip built into a receptacle... Should wind up the same cost or cheaper than a GFCI receptacle.

Yes, these ideas would be expensive, however they would actually work whereas AFCIs are expensive and do not work. I have no idea why manufacturers are so hung up on making afci Breakers do something that they cannot do. Come up with some technology that actually works... Heck, I'm not an engineer, and I spent about oh 3 minutes on the heat sensor receptacle idea.

I wish you were joking Eaton, Siemens and others are actually working on such including wire nuts and devices that actually detect temperature. They communicate back to the breaker. Although to be frank, that might actually reduce fires unlike AFCIs.

 

[ptonsparky]

I wish you were joking Eaton, Siemens and others are actually working on such including wire nuts and devices that actually detect temperature. They communicate back to the breaker. Although to be frank, that might actually reduce fires unlike AFCIs.

I now see in the future small fans aimed at problematic j boxes, instead of just the load-center.

and ten page instructions for installing them. And End of Life function...oh my...

 

[mbrooke]

I now see in the future small fans aimed at problematic j boxes, instead of just the load-center.

and ten page instructions for installing them. And End of Life function...oh my...

We're headed there. Wires, devices and load centers are no longer cost practical for manufacturers. They need to add something that will bring in money and do so by securing a sale that will keep on selling long after.

 

[JFletcher]

We're headed there. Wires, devices and load centers are no longer cost practical for manufacturers. They need to add something that will bring in money and do so by securing a sale that will keep on selling long after.

Gfci that automatically lock out after 15 years... oh wait, they probably won't even make it that long now the new self test feature.

If someone who is much more well versed in International economics can explain to me how switches, receptacles, breakers, pretty much everything can be made half a world away on more less completely automated equipment, then packaged, loaded, and shipped here, for cheaper than they can be made here, I am all eyes.

No, I was not joking about designing a smart breaker or smart receptacle, however my intent comes from a standpoint of safety, not profit. Of course what's the saying... " The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

 

[mbrooke]

Gfci that automatically lock out after 15 years... oh wait, they probably won't even make it that long now the new self test feature.

If someone who is much more well versed in International economics can explain to me how switches, receptacles, breakers, pretty much everything can be made half a world away on more less completely automated equipment, then packaged, loaded, and shipped here, for cheaper than they can be made here, I am all eyes.

No, I was not joking about designing a smart breaker or smart receptacle, however my intent comes from a standpoint of safety, not profit. Of course what's the saying... " The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Well said. But I will say this: If modern breakers and switches were sold for 1/5 the price, they would still turn a profit. IMO power systems are safe enough. Fire sprinklers are whats missing. Anything else is a gamble and can back fire. Ie, once GFCIs start failing all at once after 8 years, along with outlets and what have you, people will just start taking everything out. I replaced all my smokes and COs 2 years ago for about $250. Furnace blower months prior. Water heater has been a battle. Fridge in my garage went... If I had to replace every single GFCI in an all house GFCI scheme, along with other electronic NEC mandated gadgets, I don't think I could afford it all. Cost of living is going up and not everyone has money all the time.

Although I do agree that if something could stop glowing connections 100% of the time, there would be a drop in electrical fires.

 

[romex jockey]

I am studying part 18 BS7671 code in Britain. Also keeping track of International Code because of Jamaica. As such, and since I am building my own home in Jamaica and want it done right, I have had a lot of studying going on over terms, etc.
So, though I am mainly just a student, I have this to put in. RCD is actually the same as GFCI, but I believe that Schneider has stated that the European and American way of fixing the problem are attacked differently due to the voltage. However, I can be wrong.
That said, Europe, or at least England, have gone to a system of requiring RCD on almost every circuit, but they have several ways of doing it. They also have Arc Fault breakers but do not use them as much, partly I feel due to space in the breaker box. Due to the use of Ring circuits rather than all radials, they do not have as many circuits as many US and Caribbean homes have.
Thus, the requirement of AFCI would then require more space in already crowded breaker boxes. This might then require a second breaker panel, or consumer unit as they are ‘known here, which the government will not require unless it becomes a bigger safety issue.
That said, if the Grenfell Tower disaster somehow shows 5hat the refrigerator fire was started by an arc fault, like some think, it may cause the breaker manufacturers to create lower cost combination breakers to stop such from happening again, thus requiring the combination of AFCI/GFCI breakers, possibly easier in Britain where the panels are wired differently from the way they are in the USA, and where testing of residences is such a regular occurrence.
The paperwork trail and testing requirements for just adding a socket can look ridiculous to a handyman l8ke me, until they take the time to learn more of the reasoning behind such rules.

The Toroidal coil is common to all the devices you mention Adam

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

I have a close friend who lost his house to a fire caused by a situation that could have been prevented by an AFCI breaker. A wire had been damaged by a nail that overtime created an arcing situation ultimately causing a fire that burned down the house. Thankfully no one was injured and they did have insurance. The cause was ruled as starting with that damaged wire.

I have a history as a FF, so do a lot of others here.

There's a lot of heartache in the FF biz , and i too once thought afci technology would help ,was all for it

Until i started investigating & reading

Sorry Dan, but everytime i read these tear-jerk relpies , especially from manufacturers , i know they want one thing, to accept their product w/o critical thinking skills

btw, years ago they ran full page ads in the trade rags with FF's holding sooty little girls

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

Although I do agree that if something could stop glowing connections 100% of the time, there would be a drop in electrical fires.

Point of use thermal dynamics not only exists, there's a HUGE patent war over it, because they know it will address what in reality is the #1 cause of electrical fire

~RJ~

 

[JFletcher]

Point of use thermal dynamics not only exists, there's a HUGE patent war over it, because they know it will address what in reality is the #1 cause of electrical fire

~RJ~

And of course putting a small circuit board, a bimetallic strip, and an indicator light in a receptacle might raise its price to $3, but would more less totally negate the need for a panel of $35 a piece afci Breakers. It wouldn't surprise me if such receptacles are being patented with the intent on never making them, just owning the rights... To keep selling AFCI.

Mbrooke nailed it with sprinklers, and though they may not stop a dry Christmas tree fire or a pile of oily rags self-combusting on top of a full 5 gallon can of gasoline, if the ultimate goal was safety, there would not even be a debate. Afci breakers would disappear in a (arc) flash and all new homes would be constructed with sprinkler systems.

One of my best friends from childhood, his parents were killed in a fire when he was 12, he and his brother would have died too had a neighbor not drag them out. The fire started from a cigarette that apparently fell out an ashtray and landed on a couch of the old school type foam insulation that turns into a pool of liquid fire when ignited. That same night, another fire across town (started by kids playing with matches) took the life of a 7 year old girl... afci breakers would not have helped in either case..

Firefighters holding the lifeless, sooty bodies of little kids to push for afci technology? Wow, that is vile and reprehensible, to put it nicely

 

[romex jockey]

I'm biting my ascii tounge JF, because I have a non disclosure agreement I feel I should continue to honor despite all

I'll simply say you've hit the nail squarely on it's head

bravo!
~RJ~

 

[jap]

whether it starts a fire or not depends on whether anything combustible is nearby

You may be on to something there.

If a dwelling unit was built with metal studs and all non combustible material would AFCI's still be required?

Probably not.


JAP>

 

[hbiss]

I have a close friend who lost his house to a fire caused by a situation that could have been prevented by an AFCI breaker. A wire had been damaged by a nail that overtime created an arcing situation ultimately causing a fire that burned down the house. Thankfully no one was injured and they did have insurance. The cause was ruled as starting with that damaged wire.

Not saying you are wrong, but usually such evidence would be consumed in the fire and even be further disturbed by firefighters making it nearly impossible to determine such precision in the cause. They often will be able to say it started in a certain area with some confidence based on burn patterns, maybe even be able to say there was wiring in the vicinity that likely contributed, but often the board with the nail in it is consumed in the fire and so is the insulation on the conductor. Only chance of getting that one right is if there is arcing evidence on the conductors I guess.

Also keep in mind that because it's nearly impossible to determine the cause, it's easy for a fire marshal or investigator to just say something like that instead of wasting time especially if he is pro AFCI. They blame most fires on electrical anyway when there is no clear cause. The insurance company doesn't care what the cause is, they have the report.

Dan L, do some research here and listen to what the trade says about AFCIs. They are probably the biggest fraud on the American public ever. It would be nice if they worked, but they don't and there is no evidence that they have saved even one life.

-Hal