2020 NEC AFCI

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So I discovered the existence of this product recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZft4qoK7Ds

This energy monitor uses signal processing to discriminate different loads and monitor their energy usage. The waveform discrimination appears to be excellent. So what does this small company know that huge multinationals don't? Or have the big companies foisted a junk product on the public because they have bad R&D? Seems like this energy monitoring technology would benefit the AFCI greatly. :slaphead:
 
So I discovered the existence of this product recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZft4qoK7Ds

This energy monitor uses signal processing to discriminate different loads and monitor their energy usage. The waveform discrimination appears to be excellent. So what does this small company know that huge multinationals don't? Or have the big companies foisted a junk product on the public because they have bad R&D? Seems like this energy monitoring technology would benefit the AFCI greatly. :slaphead:

:thumbsup: Good clip.
 
We had a discussion about that system a few years ago, don't know if it was these same guys. It was available on the market. We had doubts that it could determine every electrical item in a house without some kind of learn mode. Even then, lighting and other non-unique loads could only be identified by the circuit they are on. Indeed, that's why the largest bubble is "unknown".

I agree that that technology might benefit AFCI design but look at the "horsepower" used to process the waveforms. I doubt that it would be possible to package that in individual breaker housings. Only way to do it is with an external processor connected to each breaker with a cable.

Just for giggles I would like to see them do some research into how their system might process arc fault and glowing connection waveforms. Probably time better spent than some techie toy to monitor power usage.

-Hal
 
"The Energy Detective" or "TED" monitoring system does the same things. How much effort is put into the software is mostly the limit on what it can do. They didn't mention in that video but TED does and their product likely also has leads that need connected so it will also know the voltage as well as be able to use both voltage and current to determine things like power factor.

Again it is the software that will determine just what it can do, and who can utilize it. Having it tell you a specific appliance is running ins't all that hard - but at same time any other item with a pretty similar load profile will be harder to distinguish the two.

They showed an example of a furnace where they could see on graph that it took three tries of the igniter before it lit the burner. Someone studying the graph may pick that up if the happen to notice something strange on the graph. Software needs to be programmed to notice abnormalities. There is a lot of unknowns out there to program into that if you want to make something for average consumer to be notified that something might be wrong and would take somewhat extensive set up for each installation. Plus every time you bring in some new item you need to teach it to the system or it won't know what it is, should it be similar to something else yet different, it may tell you that other item is having abnormalities.

The technology is amazing yes, I don't think it is something everyone is going to want though.
 
You may be on to something there.

If a dwelling unit was built with metal studs and all non combustible material would AFCI's still be required?

Probably not.


JAP>


Donresquecaptain19 I think mentioned a place where if you run EMT conduit for the whole circuit you can skip AFCIs.
 
Donresquecaptain19 I think mentioned a place where if you run EMT conduit for the whole circuit you can skip AFCIs.
I don't think there is any allowance to skip AFCI's altogether, but I do believe there are some situations where they can go at the first outlet if the "home run" is in a metallic wiring method.
 
So I discovered the existence of this product recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZft4qoK7Ds

This energy monitor uses signal processing to discriminate different loads and monitor their energy usage. The waveform discrimination appears to be excellent. So what does this small company know that huge multinationals don't? Or have the big companies foisted a junk product on the public because they have bad R&D? Seems like this energy monitoring technology would benefit the AFCI greatly. :slaphead:

Which electrician double tapped that 40 at 2:34? :rant::rant:


BTW, this is nothing new. The original developers of the AFCI actually envisioned the above, with a central processors in the panel which could be re-programmed as time went on. The issue especially back then and even today is cost. Good quality signature analysis borders on AI, and as such require massive amounts of computing power ($$$$$) along with research.
 
I don't think there is any allowance to skip AFCI's altogether, but I do believe there are some situations where they can go at the first outlet if the "home run" is in a metallic wiring method.

True, there is such an exception in the code.
 
If plumbers were smart, they would lobby for sprinklers in residences over afci breakers. If only...

Even if afci breakers worked perfectly, they are still far far inferior to sprinklers in terms of fire protection.

It appears the electrical Lobby has more cloud or pulling power than the plumbers.

An afci main would be fun LOL. And I bet it wouldn't be 25% of houses more like 95% of the houses wouldn't have power

Already required in CA

The CPC was the one that asked the breaker manufactures to come up with something that would detect arc faults, the electrical trade or manufactures didn't have anything to do with it.
 
The states can adopt the code in its entirety, or modify sections. For example, Michigan has an exemption or exception for arc fault breakers Virginia pushback adopting the 2014 NEC and the 2015 IBC, don't know why, but they may be working on deleting the requirements on Arc faults
Here in CA you are only allowed to make the code more restrictive, you can't make it less restrictive. I wonder how they get away with that. The current law of the land is that a jurisdiction must adopt a building code, but it doesn't have to be the most current.
 
Donresquecaptain19 I think mentioned a place where if you run EMT conduit for the whole circuit you can skip AFCIs.

He has mentioned before, perhaps where he lives or works, that the area will let you skip installing afci's if you have a sprinkler system. I believe he also said that a sprinkler system was roughly three times the cost of afci Breakers, but I'm thinking that somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000, and if I were buying a new $250,000 house, I'd rather pay 251 or 252k for it and have it sprinkled with no AFCI breakers.

The problem there is that sprinklers aren't sexy, and furthermore they're not required. I would think that many insurance companies would give discounts for sprinkled residences that would more than offset their installation cost over a decade or so.

If I remember correctly, passive fire protection falls into three categories... compartmentalization, annunciation / detection, and suppression. Without any type of suppression, IE sprinklers, if a fire, of any origin, starts and spreads, you are SOL.

Here, you can't build a deck more than two feet off the ground and have the pickets spaced more than 4 inches apart because some kid could stick their body through the opening and choke themselves to death, but it's perfectly cool to build a blank check house, especially multiple stories ones, with no alternative means of egress from the upper floors, and no sprinklers, for a family of 7. I digress, I could rant all day about how the NFPA, National FIRE Protection Association, and manufacturers pushing for AFCI technology, have anything to do with a device that, if it worked perfectly, might prevent half of all electrical fires, which account for around 10% of all fires in total.

It's hard to get people to even put up smoke detectors unless they are trying to sell a house, or even put batteries in existing ones.

Actual safety, like sprinklers, isn't sexy. Perceived safety, like afci Breakers, is a grotesque predation on people's fears.

Gfci technology... great stuff, actually works, should be in more places, which the 2017 NEC mandates per 210.8

AFCI technology, at the very very least, needs to be taken back to the drawing board and all requirements to use them immediately suspended... at worst, it would not surprise me to see a multi-billion-dollar class action lawsuit against the makers of these devices. Give it another 20 or 30 years, AFCIs will probably be seen the same way as FPE Breakers and aluminum branch circuit wiring of the 70s.
 
He has mentioned before, perhaps where he lives or works, that the area will let you skip installing afci's if you have a sprinkler system. I believe he also said that a sprinkler system was roughly three times the cost of afci Breakers, but I'm thinking that somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000, and if I were buying a new $250,000 house, I'd rather pay 251 or 252k for it and have it sprinkled with no AFCI breakers.
Our local city code permits you to skip the AFCIs if you have a fire sprinkler system. The City of Chicago requires EMT for dwelling units, and they delete the AFCI requirement.
The problem there is that sprinklers aren't sexy, and furthermore they're not required. I would think that many insurance companies would give discounts for sprinkled residences that would more than offset their installation cost over a decade or so.
Yes most insurance companies offer such a discount for fire sprinklers, but none offer a discount for AFCIs.
 
Our local city code permits you to skip the AFCIs if you have a fire sprinkler system. The City of Chicago requires EMT for dwelling units, and they delete the AFCI requirement.
Yes most insurance companies offer such a discount for fire sprinklers, but none offer a discount for AFCIs.

Ok, thank you! Got the two mixed up :slaphead::ashamed1:
 
Here in CA you are only allowed to make the code more restrictive, you can't make it less restrictive. I wonder how they get away with that. The current law of the land is that a jurisdiction must adopt a building code, but it doesn't have to be the most current.


Are you saying that a city of California can adopt a earlier code than the current state adopted code or are you saying ?
 
He has mentioned before, perhaps where he lives or works, that the area will let you skip installing afci's if you have a sprinkler system. I believe he also said that a sprinkler system was roughly three times the cost of afci Breakers, but I'm thinking that somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000, and if I were buying a new $250,000 house, I'd rather pay 251 or 252k for it and have it sprinkled with no AFCI breakers.

The problem there is that sprinklers aren't sexy, and furthermore they're not required. I would think that many insurance companies would give discounts for sprinkled residences that would more than offset their installation cost over a decade or so.

If I remember correctly, passive fire protection falls into three categories... compartmentalization, annunciation / detection, and suppression. Without any type of suppression, IE sprinklers, if a fire, of any origin, starts and spreads, you are SOL.

Here, you can't build a deck more than two feet off the ground and have the pickets spaced more than 4 inches apart because some kid could stick their body through the opening and choke themselves to death, but it's perfectly cool to build a blank check house, especially multiple stories ones, with no alternative means of egress from the upper floors, and no sprinklers, for a family of 7. I digress, I could rant all day about how the NFPA, National FIRE Protection Association, and manufacturers pushing for AFCI technology, have anything to do with a device that, if it worked perfectly, might prevent half of all electrical fires, which account for around 10% of all fires in total.

It's hard to get people to even put up smoke detectors unless they are trying to sell a house, or even put batteries in existing ones.

Actual safety, like sprinklers, isn't sexy. Perceived safety, like afci Breakers, is a grotesque predation on people's fears.

Gfci technology... great stuff, actually works, should be in more places, which the 2017 NEC mandates per 210.8

AFCI technology, at the very very least, needs to be taken back to the drawing board and all requirements to use them immediately suspended... at worst, it would not surprise me to see a multi-billion-dollar class action lawsuit against the makers of these devices. Give it another 20 or 30 years, AFCIs will probably be seen the same way as FPE Breakers and aluminum branch circuit wiring of the 70s.


I can't add anything to this- I give it a like :thumbsup: Fully agree, it just doesn't look cool. Or sophisticated like a breaker full of electronics.

I remember Don saying that residential codes actually mandate sprinklers, but its amended out at the local level. I still can not wrap my mind around that :blink:
 
I'm not understanding either. California adopts a NEC code state wide no?

-Hal

Are you saying that a city of California can adopt a earlier code than the current state adopted code or are you saying ?

Every jurisdiction in the state of CA must adopt the code as written within six months of it being adopted by the state, you may make amendments but they can only be more restrictive and must meet certain criteria (geographical, topographical or climatic).

Though out the country, every jurisdiction is required to have a building official (doesn't have to have a department) and must adopt of set of building codes, but those codes do not have to be the most recent. I've heard of jurisdictions that are still on the 1990 NEC.
 
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