230V Delta?

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Dsg319

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia
Occupation
Wv Master “lectrician”
Yes. Capacitance.
I’ve came across that once before, the only time knowingly working around a ungrounded delta system. I as well got readings in the 270volt area.
Is it still possible to receive a shock from a normal operating system due to capacitance from one phase to ground ?
 

MTW

Senior Member
Location
SE Michigan
I can’t seem to find a good image of how ground fault lighting detectors are wired, anybody got any good pictures or references?

TwoLampGroundDetector.jpg
212. Ground detectors for two-wire dc circuits. Figure 1.100 shows a very good
and simple detector for any two-wire low-voltage system. The lamps for the detector
should each be of the same wattage and voltage, the voltage being about the same as that
of the regular lamps in the plant, and two lamps which, when connected in series, burn with
equal brilliancy should be selected. Although somewhat greater sensitiveness can be
obtained with low-wattage lamps, such as 25-W lamps, for example, it is believed in general
to be better to use lamps of the same wattage as those throughout the plant, because a
burned-out or broken detector lamp can then be immediately replaced by a good lamp from
the regular stock, thus avoiding the necessity of keeping on hand a few spare special lamps.
The detector lamps, being two in series across the proper voltage for one lamp, burn
only dimly. If, however, a ground occurs on any circuit, as at a, the current from the positive
busbar through lamp 1 divides on reaching b instead of all going through lamp 2, as it
did when there was no ground. Part now goes down the ground wire and through the ground
to a, as indicated by the broken line, and thence through the wires to the negative busbar.
This reduces the resistance from b to the negative busbar, and therefore more current flows
through lamp 1 than before, while less current flows through lamp 2. Lamp 1 consequently
brightens, and lamp 2 dims. If the ground had occurred at c instead of a, lamp 2 would have
brightened and lamp 1 would have dimmed.

Attention is called to the following points, which are frequently neglected in this form
of detector:
1. The lamp receptacles should be keyless, and there should be no switches of any kind in
any of the connecting wires, so that the detector will always be in operation. To be of
greatest value, the detector must give indications instantly when a ground occurs. The
observer should not have to wait until the engineer or electrician remembers to close a
switch.
2. The wires should be protected by small fuses where they connect to the busbars. If these
fuses are omitted, a short circuit across these wires would either burn up the wires or
blow the main generator fuses.
3. The lamps should be placed very close together, within 1 or 2 in of each other if possible.
The farther apart they are, the harder it is to detect any slight difference in brilliancy
between them.
4. The ground wire should be carefully clamped to a pipe which is thoroughly connected
to the ground, or some other equally good ground connection should be provided.


3Φ LampGround Detector.jpg

215. Ground detectors for ordinary low voltage three-phase ac circuits. A lamp detector connected as in Fig. 1.102 can be used.
The indication is the same as that with the lamp detectors described above. Thus, when a ground comes on one wire,
the lamp attached to that wire dims and the other two lamps brighten.
The NEC® now requires ground detectors on ungrounded ac systems.
To meet this market there are now listed, self contained ground detectors available that are considerably more reliable than incandescent
lamps. However, an understanding of how the lamp system works is important because there are untold thousands of such detection systems still in use.
 

MTW

Senior Member
Location
SE Michigan
Many old plants with busway systems that operate on ungrounded delta, have a custom busplug installed with this lamp ground detection system installed. Easy to readily see when a phase has faulted from the plant floor. Some 25W 130V rough service lamps would be a good selection for reliable long life use. I think I have a plug with these lamps installed on the shelf, At a future time I could check if others are interested.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
'Charging current' on a large ungrounded system can be several amps, enough to deliver quite a shock.

Also a system with ground detection lamps is not truly ungrounded, but rather is grounded via the resistance of the lamps.

Jon
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Maybe if they had the middle lamp in the voltage to ground would be more even.

Not sure about this, but draw out three lamps A-G, B-G, C-G.
When C faults, lamps A and B light at full voltage. C stays off. Assuming 240 volt lamps in this case. SEWAG.

Good bonding is important because when A or B faults along with C, you will have potential for some serious current flow.

Eta:
See post 22. Much better.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Many old plants with busway systems that operate on ungrounded delta, have a custom busplug installed with this lamp ground detection system installed. Easy to readily see when a phase has faulted from the plant floor. Some 25W 130V rough service lamps would be a good selection for reliable long life use. I think I have a plug with these lamps installed on the shelf, At a future time I could check if others are interested.
130V lamps would be OK for a 120V ungrounded delta but should not be used where the line to line voltage is greater than 130V. Even though the line to line voltage will normally be dropped across two lamps in series, a ground fault will impose the full voltage on two of the lamps, potentially burning them out before anybody notices.
That would make the indicator condition all lamps out instead of one dim or out and the others bright. :)
 

oldsparky52

Senior Member
Yeah I agree. Regarding what you said you were told in the OP, It's interesting how few people seem to understand the difference between open vs closed Delta, high leg Delta, and grounded/ ungrounded Delta. You can theoretically have all 8 combinations. Many mix-up or interchange these terms. I worked on a 600v ungrounded Delta once. The other electrician kept calling it an "open Delta" (it was in fact a closed Delta).
My brain is trying to find the 8 combinations. Would you be kind enough to list them? Thanks
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
130V lamps would be OK for a 120V ungrounded delta but should not be used where the line to line voltage is greater than 130V. Even though the line to line voltage will normally be dropped across two lamps in series, a ground fault will impose the full voltage on two of the lamps, potentially burning them out before anybody notices.
That would make the indicator condition all lamps out instead of one dim or out and the others bright. :)
I have seen busway plugs with ground fault detection and neutralizing components. The plugs contained resistors which were connected in a wye with the center point grounded. The resistors had voltage taps so they could be used at 240, 489, or 600V. The 130V indicator lamps were wired in parallel with the resistors. The ground diction was not dependent on the lamps being installed or not burned out.

I wonder if this was an automotive industry standard.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
It's interesting how few people seem to understand the difference between open vs closed Delta, high leg Delta, and grounded/ ungrounded Delta. You can theoretically have all 8 combinations.

My brain is trying to find the 8 combinations. Would you be kind enough to list them? Thanks

If we include illegal installations:

Open or closed delta (2 or 3 transformers)

center tap coil or not center tap coil (high leg or not)

Grounded or not.

Arguably if your system is not grounded then you don't have a 'high leg' since voltage to ground is not defined, but you certainly have the terminal to terminal voltages of a high leg system.

And if we are counting illegal systems, then with a grounded system you could ground at different points giving even more than 8 combinations. (Corner grounded high leg open delta anyone?)

-Jon
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't see what difference open vs closed delta would make.
Add to this that I maybe didn't understand what 8 combinations are up for discussion. I guess I thought it was about 8 different ways to connect the fault indication lights, maybe talking about something else?
 
Add to this that I maybe didn't understand what 8 combinations are up for discussion. I guess I thought it was about 8 different ways to connect the fault indication lights, maybe talking about something else?
See post #17. OP was told it was a high leg system by someone who was likely mixing up or using high leg synonymouslywith ungrounded. I was commenting that I have run to into that frequently with many people mixing up or not understanding the difference between high leg, open/closed, and grounded/ungrounded.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
See post #17. OP was told it was a high leg system by someone who was likely mixing up or using high leg synonymouslywith ungrounded. I was commenting that I have run to into that frequently with many people mixing up or not understanding the difference between high leg, open/closed, and grounded/ungrounded.
OK. I get that any time some people see something other 120 to ground they think it is high leg delta.

You can get high leg from open or closed delta, some think it is an open delta only thing, some think it is 240 volt only - it can be any voltage. We do have 480 volt high leg delta systems here - mostly on limited load irrigation services but there is occasional higher capacity - usually when not all three primary phases are not available. Most those are older and will remain as is until some sort of load change occurs. With new higher capacity services POCO usually wants all three primary phases run as much as possible.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
And then you have the system I design.work with:

View attachment 2555678


4 wires, but no neutral for L-N loads.
If you ground the neutral NEC calls that a 4 wire system even if not utilizing the neutral for any load. If you float that neutral and ground one of the "phases" then it is essentially no different than a corner ground delta to the application of it and is a three phase three wire system.

Not much for utilization equipment out there that is designed for 138 volts, some equipment that likely can tolerate that voltage but wasn't necessarily intended to be used at that voltage either.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
If you ground the neutral NEC calls that a 4 wire system even if not utilizing the neutral for any load. If you float that neutral and ground one of the "phases" then it is essentially no different than a corner ground delta to the application of it and is a three phase three wire system.

Not much for utilization equipment out there that is designed for 138 volts, some equipment that likely can tolerate that voltage but wasn't necessarily intended to be used at that voltage either.



I agree, but past the OCPD, you still need an EGC of some sort. Which can be a wire, thus, 4 wire.

One thing that confuses the heck out of people is when you have no line to neutral loads and start using the word "neutral" and "ground" interchangeably.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I agree, but past the OCPD, you still need an EGC of some sort. Which can be a wire, thus, 4 wire.

One thing that confuses the heck out of people is when you have no line to neutral loads and start using the word "neutral" and "ground" interchangeably.
You need a separate EGC for corner ground and ungrounded systems as well beyond the service or first means of disconnect. So yes you run 4 wires with branch circuits and feeders, or 5 if there is a neutral.

Corner ground and ungrounded systems are still referred to as three phase three wire systems though. If you have a three phase four wire "system" that means there is a neutral conductor involved even if it has no load connected to it.
 
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