360 degrees in bends

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sticko

Member
Location
nothern virginia
I have been in discussions with several contrators when there are more than 360 degrees are in a conduit run. In the newest example, they have around 300 degrees in EMT then they used a changeover fitting to FMC. Now the FMC has 180 degrees. That's a total of 480. I have sugessted that they use a "C" body at the transition. They claim that the changeover fitting is the pull point. I have never done this. I do not consider the fitting as a pull point.
To me, common practice does not make it code compliant.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
You measure from pull point to pull point. If there's 300 in one section, and 180 in another, it's legal. If they're taking the transition apart in order to access their 'pull point', that would be a violation of 300.18(A).

I never kept track, but I'll bet there's runs of pipe I've installed that had thousands of degrees of bends in them between the panel and the final outlet.
 
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sticko

Member
Location
nothern virginia
I would disagree. The conduit run as a whole should be less than 360 degrees. Because there is a transition between the types of conduit we shouldn't concider as two seperate runs. In this case the pull points are the panel that feeds, and the VFD. There is not a pull point between them, only a changeover fitting.
 

wireguy8169

Senior Member
Location
Southern Maine
I could not find an description of what the NEC considers a specifically a pull point, but I would not consider that transition a pull point, so I agree with you. I know many people pull conductors to the end of a conduit then put on the LT and finish it off, and yes you would be pulling from that point but again I would not consider that the type of pull point being refered to in 342.26 of the 2008 NEC.
Maybe you can explain that if something should happen and the conductors get burnt or damaged in the device having a jb or something there you can cut off the condutors and just add new from there to the device instead of the whole run...
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
You aren't disagreeing, you're agreeing.:roll:

Actually I think he is disagreeing with the first posters contractors??

But if the transistion is a NEC approved box then go to town.


I always tried to stick to 360 and several times installed a box, BUT pulled right through it.
Think per the letter of teh NEC that is right?
 

dicklaxt

Senior Member
If the change over fitting referenced is an adaptor coupling for mating EMT to FMC I would not consider that a pull point anymore than a standard coupling in a conduit run.

dick
 

RETRAINDAILY

Senior Member
Location
PHX, arizona
You measure from pull point to pull point. If there's 300 in one section, and 180 in another, it's legal. If they're taking the transition apart in order to access their 'pull point', that would be a violation of 300.18(A).

I never kept track, but I'll bet there's runs of pipe I've installed that had thousands of degrees of bends in them between the panel and the final outlet.

What is this saying?

300.18(A)...
Where required
to facilitate the installation of utilization equipment,
the raceway shall be permitted to be initially installed without
a terminating connection at the equipment.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
I have a secret to tell the op. The secret is I will bet that the wire was installed in the conduit before the last section of sealtight flex was installed so the question of having too many bends for wire pulling is sort of a moot point, but the whole setup and the method are both wrong.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I must admit I have never pulled wire thru the last bit (6' or so) of flex. Personally I see no problem as long as the flex is short enough and not fished thru walls etc.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
Try pulling through a "sealtite" 90!
I'll bet you remove it and then feed through the 90 piece for the last few feet.
Per code 300.18a above; rest need "c" or box etc.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
What is this saying?

300.18(A)...
Where required
to facilitate the installation of utilization equipment,
the raceway shall be permitted to be initially installed without
a terminating connection at the equipment.

It is not saying we can pull fitting apart in the middle of the run as the OPs situation is.

Only the connection of the raceway to the equipment can be left undone.
 

Barndog

Senior Member
Location
Spring Creek Pa
I would also agree that using a changeover fitting does not allow you to start your degree of bends over. that would almost be the same thing as opening an EMT coupling to pull the wire through. even though i have had to do this with out going over 360 in bends. i would personally use a box or a condulet fitting to change over.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I don't know the particulars of the installation, but I can think of one circumstance where I do not consider any bends in the flex, and most certiainly do disconnect the 'completed raceway' in order to pull wires: motors, and a lot of industrial equipment.

It's simply not practical to either pull from or feed into those little connection boxes on the sides of motors. If nothing else, they're nearly always located in an awkward position. So, the flex is disconnected, the wires pulled, then the wires and flex are fed back into the connection box.

I recognize that the language of the NEC does not provide for this situation .... but, having made serious attempts to 'comply,' there's really no alternative.

Is this always the case? No .... but we have to recognize the difference between a real bind, and a convenient bit of gamesmanship. Naturally, the "lawyers" will assert that there is no such thing ...

As for the C-body, or ANY conduit body, for that matter, I consider their utility as pulling points to be severely limited. The wire ALWAYS forms a loop, and getting the last half-inch of wire into the body is when the wire is almost insisting of damaging itself. The presence of the C-body might make the inspector happy, but that's it. Like the 'escape hatch' on a submarine, it's there to keep the ignorant happy.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I don't know the particulars of the installation, but I can think of one circumstance where I do not consider any bends in the flex, and most certiainly do disconnect the 'completed raceway' in order to pull wires: motors, and a lot of industrial equipment.

It's simply not practical to either pull from or feed into those little connection boxes on the sides of motors. If nothing else, they're nearly always located in an awkward position. So, the flex is disconnected, the wires pulled, then the wires and flex are fed back into the connection box.

I recognize that the language of the NEC does not provide for this situation .

300.18 provides for that situation directly.
 

dicklaxt

Senior Member
Don't lose sight of the fact that jamming of conductors at bends causes skinned insulation and undue pulling stresses.The opening of any pull fitting must be twice as long as the minimum bending radius of the largest conductor.

dick
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
300.18 provides for that situation directly.
I don't think so. That section only lets you leave the equipment end of the flex unconnected. I often do as John said...completely remove the flex, pull the wire out of the end of the conduit and then install the flex between the the end of the conduit and the equipment.
300.18 Raceway Installations
(A) Complete Runs Raceways, other than busways or exposed raceways having hinged or removable covers, shall be installed complete between outlet, junction, or splicing points prior to the installation of conductors. Where required to facilitate the installation of utilization equipment, the raceway shall be permitted to be initially installed without a terminating connection at the equipment. Prewired raceway assemblies shall be permitted only where specifically permitted in this Code for the applicable wiring method.
 
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