400A Main turns off by itself

[big john]

...The trip position and the open position are exactly the same....

This is often true for power circuit breakers, but molded-case breakers almost always trip to an intermediate position.

I don't know if that's always true of large-frame MCCBs, but I'll defer to the manufacturer if they say it is for this model.

 

[J.P.]

I feel like I need a tinfoil hat just to read this thread now....:lol:

Cow!!! You should have your Reynolds Mind Sanctity Protection on at all times. You are already compromised.......

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm a believer, I've seen and heard just enough to make me so. Come on over to Facebook and ask to join my site "Simi Valley Paranormal" (it's a closed site, but we're just shy of 1000 members). Some great stories and pics on there. We also talk about UFO's and cryptozoology and just the unexplained, such as interdimensional travel and what not.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/hillary-clinton-wants-to-send-a-task-force-to-area-51-t-1751031480

we need to move this thread to area 51.

 

[Strathead]

I'm not sure I fully understand by your last paragraph, but I am confident I know the difference between a tripped breaker and a breaker in the off position.

I am pretty sure this is exactly what JRAEF was asking and your answer is all the assurance he was looking for. This thread has gotten pretty long and there is a lot of information spread out. Even with the levity, there is obviously a lot of interest here. If you could spend a few minutes, perhaps a new post with concise but accurate chronology of events up to this point would help. Also, include a picture of the breaker to clear up some of the likely off mark speculation like a cover hitting the handle. I see this:

• You are a fully educated and qualified electrician with a reasonable understanding of the theory as well as the practical application of electrical.
• The Breaker is a Square D LAL
• You have replaced the breaker several times. It is location not breaker since bench tests show properly operating breakers but field operation shows failure.
• You personally saw the breaker go to the open position without intervention.

etc.

BTW, if this were me, I would be going nuts. You have to understand that the situation is so outside the hundreds of years of practical experience that is represented here. Skepticism is necessary. I, for example believe you think you see what you are seeing and I believe in things that we don't have explanations for up to this time, but unless I personally observed it, I would always maintain a certain amount of skepticism just so someone couldn't jump up and say, "Gotcha!" On a more practical side, it seems that an illusionist style practical joke is the most likely explanation, but the cost of performing and the cost to you and the business of going through it seems criminal. So, on a cost side. If as you are saying a person is spending all day every day, just standing by, then perhaps a solution even temporary of eliminating the breaker and feeding the circuit from a fused disconnect or similar is called for.

 

[Ride the Lightning]

I am pretty sure this is exactly what JRAEF was asking and your answer is all the assurance he was looking for. This thread has gotten pretty long and there is a lot of information spread out. Even with the levity, there is obviously a lot of interest here. If you could spend a few minutes, perhaps a new post with concise but accurate chronology of events up to this point would help. Also, include a picture of the breaker to clear up some of the likely off mark speculation like a cover hitting the handle. I see this:

• You are a fully educated and qualified electrician with a reasonable understanding of the theory as well as the practical application of electrical.
• The Breaker is a Square D LAL
• You have replaced the breaker several times. It is location not breaker since bench tests show properly operating breakers but field operation shows failure.
• You personally saw the breaker go to the open position without intervention.

etc.

BTW, if this were me, I would be going nuts. You have to understand that the situation is so outside the hundreds of years of practical experience that is represented here. Skepticism is necessary. I, for example believe you think you see what you are seeing and I believe in things that we don't have explanations for up to this time, but unless I personally observed it, I would always maintain a certain amount of skepticism just so someone couldn't jump up and say, "Gotcha!" On a more practical side, it seems that an illusionist style practical joke is the most likely explanation, but the cost of performing and the cost to you and the business of going through it seems criminal. So, on a cost side. If as you are saying a person is spending all day every day, just standing by, then perhaps a solution even temporary of eliminating the breaker and feeding the circuit from a fused disconnect or similar is called for.

My apologies I suppose I have not given sequence of events in a thorough manner.
Main breaker turns off intermittently.
Main breaker changed 3 times.
Square D tech tested 2 of the breakers. Tests were normal
Pos systems, drive thru system and ups units frequently burn out. Approx 4-5 times since 12/1/15.
All equipment tested. All branch circuitry, main panel feeders/bussing tested and meggered.
All branch j-boxes, receptacles, light fixtures and boxes checked.
Power company recorded utility transformers and neutral coming in (still waiting for results)
Slight odor of electronic burning at times after power goes down.
Video camera (with a battery charge) plugged into building receptacle would stop recording the very second power was lost. Pause video at last second before power loss and picture appears distorted.
Video camera (with a battery charge) plugged into a 1KW generator stops recording just before power loss of building. Pause the video at last second before power loss and picture is distorted.

My my new theory: I have a name for this ghost. EMP. What do you all know of it as I have not researched it yet and I'm not comfortable even jumping to this idea but given the way my camera and the other electronics have been acting here I'm not ruling anything out.

Also so this entire stores utilities are linked through satellite. Our low voltage conduits to the street are empty of wires.

 

[kwired]

My apologies I suppose I have not given sequence of events in a thorough manner.
Main breaker turns off intermittently.
Main breaker changed 3 times.
Square D tech tested 2 of the breakers. Tests were normal
Pos systems, drive thru system and ups units frequently burn out. Approx 4-5 times since 12/1/15.
All equipment tested. All branch circuitry, main panel feeders/bussing tested and meggered.
All branch j-boxes, receptacles, light fixtures and boxes checked.
Power company recorded utility transformers and neutral coming in (still waiting for results)
Slight odor of electronic burning at times after power goes down.
Video camera (with a battery charge) plugged into building receptacle would stop recording the very second power was lost. Pause video at last second before power loss and picture appears distorted.
Video camera (with a battery charge) plugged into a 1KW generator stops recording just before power loss of building. Pause the video at last second before power loss and picture is distorted.

My my new theory: I have a name for this ghost. EMP. What do you all know of it as I have not researched it yet and I'm not comfortable even jumping to this idea but given the way my camera and the other electronics have been acting here I'm not ruling anything out.

Also so this entire stores utilities are linked through satellite. Our low voltage conduits to the street are empty of wires.

sounds like you likely have some problems there, but an LAL breaker still should trip to a mid position if it is tripping and not to the full off position. You should have to move it to full off position to reset it before it can be turned on again. Camera stopping/pausing probably shouldn't happen either at power loss if the camera essentially runs off an internal battery, as long as batter is good and has a charge.

 

[Strathead]

My apologies I suppose I have not given sequence of events in a thorough manner.

My my new theory: I have a name for this ghost. EMP. What do you all know of it as I have not researched it yet and I'm not comfortable even jumping to this idea but given the way my camera and the other electronics have been acting here I'm not ruling anything out.

Also so this entire stores utilities are linked through satellite. Our low voltage conduits to the street are empty of wires.

This is great and pretty close to what I was suggesting. With 12 pages already everything pertinent should still be in one post so I want to include a couple bullet points I stated. Her goes, not trying to step on toes:

• You are a fully educated and qualified electrician with a reasonable understanding of the theory as well as the practical application of electrical.
• The Breaker is a Square D LAL
• You personally saw the breaker go to the open position without intervention.
• Main breaker turns off intermittently.
• Main breaker changed 3 times.
• Square D tech tested 2 of the breakers. Tests were normal
• Pos systems, drive thru system and ups units frequently burn out. Approx 4-5 times since 12/1/15.
• All equipment tested. All branch circuitry, main panel feeders/bussing tested and meggered.
• All branch j-boxes, receptacles, light fixtures and boxes checked.
• Power company recorded utility transformers and neutral coming in (still waiting for results)
• Slight odor of electronic burning at times after power goes down.
• Video camera (with a battery charge) plugged into building receptacle would stop recording the very second power was lost. Pause video at last second before power loss and picture appears distorted.
• Video camera (with a battery charge) plugged into a 1KW generator stops recording just before power loss of building. Pause the video at last second before power loss and picture is distorted.
• Also so this entire stores utilities are linked through satellite. Our low voltage conduits to the street are empty of wires.

 

[curt swartz]

Is the camera recording directly to a built in SD card or is it connected to the buildings network in any way? If it is connected to the buildings network that would explain why it stops recording when the power is off.

Is the generator and power supply to the camera visible from the camera? If someone is messing with you and they know they are being recorded they could shut the camera off prior to shutting the breaker off.

 

[K8MHZ]

Is the camera recording directly to a built in SD card or is it connected to the buildings network in any way? If it is connected to the buildings network that would explain why it stops recording when the power is off.

Good question. I was assuming the generator driven video would be totally electrically isolated from the building's wiring. I didn't think about one that was part of the building's own surveillance system.

If the video camera is NOT connected in any way to the building wiring and recording to it's own memory, that would elevate the level of 'strange' a bit more.

I am curious to know the answer to your question, too.

 

[K8MHZ]

Is the generator and power supply to the camera visible from the camera? If someone is messing with you and they know they are being recorded they could shut the camera off prior to shutting the breaker off.

Also, if someone is messing with the OP, and they are obviously good at it, they could still sneak up behind the camera and turn it off.

If there were two cameras, and they could both see each other, better if one is hidden, no one could sneak up on either without being recorded by the other.

 

[zbang]

My my new theory: I have a name for this ghost. EMP. What do you all know of it as I have not researched it yet and I'm not comfortable even jumping to this idea but given the way my camera and the other electronics have been acting here I'm not ruling anything out.

I was starting to think EMP, too. Or possibly radar. What's the physical situation of the place? From the first post, it sounds like it's a standalone shack (in a parking lot?). Is there an airport? Steel mill with an electric-arc furnace? Electric train of any kind? Other large electric user? (Part of my thinking is leakage pulses though the earth, an electric railroad with bad track bonds could do something like this; leakage was a real problem with early systems.)

IMO, none of them would cause a 400a breaker to go from on to the real off position, but if electronics are toasting and other weird thing happening, a transient field or voltage gradient could do something.

For amusement- unlike most electric rail systems, the London Undergound uses a four-rail system, two running rails and two power rails (-210v & +420v IIRC). The running rail don't carry traction current, at least not intentionally.

It would be an interesting experiment to sink a couple of ground rods, maybe 20' apart, and log the voltage between them.

 

[Fulthrotl]

My my new theory: I have a name for this ghost. EMP. What do you all know of it as I have not researched it yet and I'm not comfortable even jumping to this idea but given the way my camera and the other electronics have been acting here I'm not ruling anything out.

Also so this entire stores utilities are linked through satellite. Our low voltage conduits to the street are empty of wires.

you have a physical situation, and i'm not seeing it as being triggered by EMP.
a quick read thru wikipedia doesn't give much fuel to this theory.

the thing is moving from on to full off, not overcurrent tripping.

stopping well short of the X files, twice in my life i've seen stuff happen that
is at this level of bizarre. that's rare enough to rule it unlikely in my humble opinion.

but not impossible.

before we call in scully and mulder, what i'd want to do is run a series with a fluke 1750:

"Setting up a power quality analyzer to capture detailed power quality data has never been easier
that it is with the Fluke 1750. The only things you need to know are the system voltage, frequency
and the power configuration (delta or wye). The analyzer then captures the most important data for
up to 30 days without losing the most important details. These power meters automatically record
every power quality parameter and event, on every cycle – all the time. Once the data is captured
download via Ethernet or directly to 2GB SD card (without the need of any other device).
The Fluke 1750 features a wireless front panel for viewing measurements, data and setting up,
implemented via a tablet computer using Bluetooth communication."

they are about $15k to buy, so renting isn't gonna be cheap, but neither has what you
have had to endure so far with this.

i'd put it ahead of the main. and i'd put two gopro cameras with sd cards on
time lapse aimed at the entire area, in such a way that they show each other.

i'd write this whole thing off except that you stated that you were standing there,
and WATCHED it happen. that sort of filters out tampering, unless you have
multiple personality disorder, and one of them did it. as that is also clinically pretty
rare, we will rule out the voices in your head made you do it, for now.

and a POCO scan, i'd take with a couple grains of salt. their main agenda
isn't solving your problem, it's eliminating their liability.

if the 1750 can't catch it, and the gopros don't show anything physical happening,
and it happens again while scanning, then we can start looking for an exorcist.

EDIT: i worked with a technician scanning a SCE atomic clock room for transients,
up to 5 gigahertz. there was noise affecting the clock, but it still comes back to
you are physically moving from full on, to full off, without a trip. that requires kinetic
energy, and static in the air isn't gonna do it.

 

[Jraef]

So put a lock on it and tell us if it stops it from happening. Cameras and PQ monitoring doesn't seem to be giving you any answers so stopping it from happening should be the logical solution.

Roger

I agree, that is the easiest course of action in my opinion. With the handle lock configured to lock it ON, it would still be able to trip, but could not actually move to the full OFF position until the lock is removed. If you put the lock on and the problem stops, it was sabotage. If the breaker still trips, continue on with your other theories. Simpler and far far cheaper than a dual camera and generator scheme.

I have been involved in projects where disgruntled employees have gone to great lengths to foul things up and cost the employer money, but avoid being caught at it. Whenever I hear stories like this I always start with eliminating the obvious and possible, which I feel has been done here, and then move toward the muckraker theory. So far I have been right every time. In one case I installed complex alarm system at a brewery bottling line that immediately told supervisors which area was getting jammed. Within a week, they nailed the guy doing it because they tracked assignments to the areas. Before they could fire him, a fork lift mysteriously pierced the cabinet with the $10,000 alarm system in it. Because the value made it a felony at the time, police were brought in and found his fingerprints on that forklift, he was not a qualified driver.

 

[MD84]

Still, the OP has seen with his own eyes the breaker switch to off while he was the only one in the room.

Rtl - Please upload/link the video and picture of breaker. The video distortion sounds like an energy disturbance. Perhaps an EMP. You were in the room during an event. Did you sense anything?

 

[Strathead]

r.

i'd write this whole thing off except that you stated that you were standing there,
and WATCHED it happen. that sort of filters out tampering, unless you have
multiple personality disorder, and one of them did it. as that is also clinically pretty
rare, we will rule out the voices in your head made you do it, for now.

I don't know, Akum's razor may require this possibility. As you reiterated, the breaker going to the off position rules out many of the alternatives, so this is the only suggestion that really fits the facts other than an elaborate illusionist prank on the level of David Copperfield or Penn and Teller. I'd put down a smiley face except I am not really kidding.

 

[RobertKLR]

I've read many of the posts but I haven't seen anyone suggest checking the mounting area of the breaker. Is the breaker seated properly and not under a twisting stress where it is mounted? I once mounted a breaker without knowing the mounting area was not true and when I tightened the fasteners it cracked and tripped due to the twisting force on the breaker. Could be a similar situation.

 

[Netpog]

I don't see how EMP would send the breaker all the way to OFF, but we do have those simultaneous phenomena of burning-smells and video-camera-glitches, so let's further consider electromagnetic badness:

[...] this entire stores utilities are linked through satellite.[snip]

Is the satellite dish close to the panel? It's aimed upwards and southwards, of course, but if you sight backwards do you find that the panel is dead behind it? Are there any satellite-upload communications that might be timed with the tripping events (or, if you prefer, the "trippy events")? Can you trigger an intense satellite upload/download, to see if that makes trippy things happen?

 

[Netpog]

I've read many of the posts but I haven't seen anyone suggest checking the mounting area of the breaker. Is the breaker seated properly and not under a twisting stress where it is mounted? I once mounted a breaker without knowing the mounting area was not true and when I tightened the fasteners it cracked and tripped due to the twisting force on the breaker. Could be a similar situation.

Good point. As with many hard-to-track intermittent bugs, there might be more than one problem. For example, maybe subtle torque on the panel makes the main breaker more-susceptible to the EMP, especially at times that kitchen gear is drawing a heavy load.

Robert, I also wondered about the mounting area, but I was thinking about either vibration or magnetism:

[...] Any chance that physical shock/vibration is affecting these breakers? Is there a source near the panel of a powerful magnetic field?

Is anything "interesting" mounted on the wall behind the panel?

PS (ETA) RtL, I'm sure that Strathead's post, full of respect and empathy (while explaining the skepticism) speaks for most of us. Please keep us posted; we're wanting you to solve this. Besides, we're fascinated! And please keep throwing the diagnostics at it, especially where it's easiest for you (e.g. sending us some cellphone pictures of the panel; or installing an inexpensive lock, although I'm guessing you'll simply see trips instead of shut-offs).

 

[Ride the Lightning]

Hello folks. Just giving an update. So far no nuisance outages since weds 10:30am est time. For the life of me I honestly have no clue what could be causing this annoying situation. The store itself has been having issues with their pos systems being unable to communicate with its mothership in the sky. A tech guy is here now and says their patch panel cords were reconfigured so as to cause that dilemma. There have been about 6 different techs at that patch panel that I can recall over the last 3 or so weeks this BS has been going on. If that was sabotage or incompetent tech guys it remains to be determined as the camera system (which one is aimed directly at that patch panel) had the security feed in a wrong port. There is no dvr in the store. It records directly to the mothership via satellite. I did state in an earlier post there is recorded evidence of this as there is a camera directly in front of and above the main panel. However, I stated that going on the word of the stores construction manager who is having issues with corporate to retrieve that footage. Apparently it's a political process to get all the recordings if it even recorded anything at all. I'm still baffled over all of this as to how my own camera couldn't capture anything. I'm second guessing myself over "human intervention" but I'm perplexed and torn as I stated earlier I have witnessed that main breaker going to off on its own. If somehow this is some sort of Penn and Teller routine, the electrical minds I have brought in on this alone all agree these pranksters are missing their calling. I told my wife, when this is over I need a weekend in a motel room with a couple bottles of JD and a prostitute. She responded with "as long as you can do that for $100". I said bottom shelf whiskey it is then! She didn't find that as amusing as I did....

 

[roger]

So I take it the lock is too expensive?

Roger