400A Main turns off by itself

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JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
I know RtL says this breaker has tripped in front of him, but if there exists a credible log of other times when it's shut itself off, and there arent a hundred employees at this place, and I had a free hour, I would see who's been at the store in all instances.

Motel room, JD, and some working girls for $100? Your wife has a great sense of humor. Reading that to my gf she said "good luck. dont expect me to be home when you get back".

eta: grounds up ftw! :p
 

MD84

Senior Member
Location
Stow, Ohio, USA
If it really is a human pulling a prank I can think of some really great counter pranks. I mean opening a lever or switch could trigger just about anything.

At this point though a counter prank is hardly a consideration. Criminal prosecution is warranted here.
 
I have considered the lock repeatedly. I understand if it needed to it would still trip. There is a voice in my head that speaks out against the thought of the lock every time I think of doing it. Theres a reason this is happening and by forcing it to stay in the on position, there would be zero chance of figuring this out. I've also considered removing the main and installing a 400a fused disconnect.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I have considered the lock repeatedly. I understand if it needed to it would still trip. There is a voice in my head that speaks out against the thought of the lock every time I think of doing it. Theres a reason this is happening and by forcing it to stay in the on position, there would be zero chance of figuring this out. I've also considered removing the main and installing a 400a fused disconnect.
Well it'll be easier to find then, all you have to do is look for the smoke or the burn spot.


ghosts, whiskey, EMP, aliens?

what a thread. almost as good as the up or down thread on ground pins.
Like I tell my kids, when they do find Bigfoot, I will be expecting an apology.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Since this thread has already explored areas well past the ordinary, I will offer another possibility. I will state in advance that this one tends to fall apart under the notion that the breaker has been replaced two or more times. But if I wanted to cause the type of trouble being encountered here, I wonder if it would be possible to rig something internal to the breaker when nobody else is around. Simple version is a pull string that I can run through the underside of the switchboard. It would have to be run from below, across some mechanism internal to the breaker (so it could not be seen from outside the switchboard), and then back again down below. Whenever I wish, I could pull both legs of the string, thereby opening the breaker, and then pull one leg of the string to remove it from the breaker.

OK, dumb idea. But does this inspire any brighter ideas?
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
Interesting thread so far. I sure would like to see a video of this happening.

What I would do...

Lock the breaker in the "ON" position and see if the problem goes away.

I would have done two cameras, one in sight and one hidden. You can get relatively inexpensive DVR security systems with HD POE cameras from Costco or Sam's Club that record to a big hard drives. Just make sure the system is plugged into a UPS, in a locked room that only you have the key to.

Until I see actual video evidence, I'll remain skeptical.
 

roger

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Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Either the breaker is tripping and the OP does not recognize the difference or Y'all are being trolled.
That's the reason I keep saying to lock it and be done, if it goes off after that it has tripped.


Roger
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Since this thread has already explored areas well past the ordinary, I will offer another possibility. . . . OK, dumb idea. But does this inspire any brighter ideas?
To further explain my intent, I am suggesting that we take Occam's Razor to the next logical step. The essential concept of Occam's Razor is that, if all else is otherwise equal, it is usually the simplest explanation that tends to be the truth. In this case, the simplest explanation is that there is malicious mischief at play, that a human is intentionally causing the symptoms.

I can only see three possibilities that fit this explanation. The first two would name RTL as that human. Please, RTL, please do not take offense! I do not for a moment believe either to be the truth. But for the purposes of allowing for a complete analysis, I feel that I need to at least mention them. The first possible explanation is that RTL is schizophrenic, and is unaware that his “evil twin” is the cause of this problem. The second is that RTL is the cause, is perfectly aware that he is the cause, is doing it all on purpose for reasons of his own, and is using his participation on this forum as a cover, a smoke screen to throw suspicion away from him.

OK. Let’s dismiss those two, and focus on what I believe to be the only remaining explanation that involves a human. It is some other human, and my question for the forum is this: If you wanted to cause these symptoms, how could you go about it?

To my way of thinking, the two most difficult facts that we have been presented are, (1) That RTL personally observed the breaker going to the “open” (and not “trip free”) position, and (2) That two breakers have been sent to the lab, and both have passed all tests. So tell me, how could a human make that happen? How would MacGyver do it?

Let us look for the holes in the system, the assumptions that we are all making, the possibilities that we have dismissed without a second (or even a first) thought. It is my guess that RTL did not personally purchase the replacement breakers, nor did he personally deliver them to the vendor for testing. (RTL, please confirm or refute these guesses.) That brings another human into the equation. Suppose there is a way to disable the internal trip mechanism, so that the breaker would always go to the open position on an overload condition. Suppose there is a way to reset the trip setting so as to allow the breaker to trip (in this instance, I mean to go open) under a normal load. Suppose the bad guy manually opened the original “perfectly normal” breaker, and replaced it with the rigged breaker. Suppose than when RTL wanted to substitute a new breaker, the bad guy handed him a second rigged breaker. Finally, suppose that the bad guy then sent a perfectly normal breaker to the vendor for testing.

I submit that this fits the facts. OK everyone, now it is your turn. What else also fits the facts?
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
Deer trail cams are pretty cheap, have a timestamp feature and run for a long time on batteries alone. A well hidden trail cam might be quite revealing :)
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Well going with the rigged theory, I guess someone could have installed a shunt trip or something along those lines, but I don't think that explains the "off" position.
 
I'm going to interpret 1964element's comment as "I'm despairing of this thread...", which is of course his privilege.

As one of those who remains fascinated, I'm again (following from my comments #137 & 138) asking RtL:

Can you send us pictures of the panel? (Cover off, if you can.) Is anything 'interesting' mounted on the wall nearby, or directly behind, that panel? Might there be any correlation between the satellite transmissions and the various weird behaviors? Do you have enemies?
 
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