AFCI breakers NOT tripping when they should

kwired said:
Unless maybe this is some kind of sarcasm comment?
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Those who report this AFCI trip discover it with light switch turned off, while changing out a light fixture.

Not a recommended test for unqualified persons, but a switch controlled AFCI receptacle may be safely handled in the same manner.
 
electrofelon said:
I could be convinced to go with gfpe instead of all AFCI and most of the new GFI requirements of the last several code cycles
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I figured I'd test it on my own house before I go recommending it, right now I don't have any standard 120V breakers anymore.
The kitchen has small appliance circuits and dedicated for dishwasher and disposal. I put the dishwasher, disposal (both are hardwired) and the clothes washer, on GFPE breakers.
Just to see what would happen I put my kitchen appliance circuit with the fridge on a AFCI/GFCI combo breaker and it tripped, the circuit has GFCI protection at the receptacles but not at the fridge receptacle, so I then did swap a 20A GFPE on it.
I am not totally anti AFCI or anything, its just they are not required on a panel change.
I did choose to put the bedroom and livingroom circuits on either AFCI or AFCI/GFCI combo breakers also some lighting circuits that I have extended, but I think the AFCI I used was the now older Siemens with GFPE.
 
tortuga said:
I figured I'd test it on my own house before I go recommending it, right now I don't have any standard 120V breakers anymore.
The kitchen has small appliance circuits and dedicated for dishwasher and disposal. I put the dishwasher, disposal (both are hardwired) and the clothes washer, on GFPE breakers.
Just to see what would happen I put my kitchen appliance circuit with the fridge on a AFCI/GFCI combo breaker and it tripped, the circuit has GFCI protection at the receptacles but not at the fridge receptacle, so I then did swap a 20A GFPE on it.
I am not totally anti AFCI or anything, its just they are not required on a panel change.
I did choose to put the bedroom and livingroom circuits on either AFCI or AFCI/GFCI combo breakers also some lighting circuits that I have extended, but I think the AFCI I used was the now older Siemens with GFPE.
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Where did you find GFPE breakers in that small amperage (20A)?
I guess I mean that would fit a load center.
 
Little Bill said:
Where did you find GFPE breakers in that small amperage (20A)?
I guess I mean that would fit a load center.
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Siemens, Eaton and Square D all offer them, to order the Siemens ones just insert a E its a into the part number after the Q for a normal plug on breaker a so a 1-pole 20A is QE120, 2 -pole 40 is a QE240.
I paid the same price as a regular GFCI breaker.
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ramsy said:
Those who report this AFCI trip discover it with light switch turned off, while changing out a light fixture.

Not a recommended test for unqualified persons, but a switch controlled AFCI receptacle may be safely handled in the same manner.
Click to expand...
encountered that myself. I have almost exclusively installed Square D breakers which still have a GFP in their AFCI's. Supposedly some others out there won't trip anymore as there is no GFP component in them.
 
ptonsparky said:
I can remember tripping a GFCI breaker via the neutral to hand to panel enclosure. Felt nothing, didn't try it again either.
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I remember an inspector telling story of plugging his GFCI tester into a receptacle with metal weatherproof cover and it indicated open ground. Out of habit and not really thinking about it he pressed the GFCI test button on his test device, and because the metal cover was laying on his hand it became energized and "woke him up". I don't know what kind of test current is typical of those things but they don't trip AFCI's with ~30 mA GFP component to them yet have to draw at least ~5 mA to trip the GFCI's they are intended to test. Those few mA are still going to be something you will feel. Maybe if you had dirty, sweaty hands in your case the majority of current passed through surface materials on your hand and you may not feel anything? If it actually penetrated into your hand you likely would have felt something.
 
tortuga said:
Siemens, Eaton and Square D all offer them, to order the Siemens ones just insert a E its a into the part number after the Q for a normal plug on breaker a so a 1-pole 20A is QE120, 2 -pole 40 is a QE240.
I paid the same price as a regular GFCI breaker.
View attachment 2575270
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Thanks, I had no idea these came in single pole and for the same price as regular GFCI breakers.
 
kwired said:
encountered that myself. I have almost exclusively installed Square D breakers which still have a GFP in their AFCI's. Supposedly some others out there won't trip anymore as there is no GFP component in them.
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You touched each wire with you bare hand and it tripped or you touched the ground and neutral together and it tripped? We commonly will touch the ground to neutral together to trip AFCI's but there must be load on the circuit somewhere for them to trip.

I think the person that told Ramsy that touching both wires with their hand forgot to say the part that the wires also touch each other.
 
kwired said:
encountered that myself. I have almost exclusively installed Square D breakers which still have a GFP in their AFCI's. Supposedly some others out there won't trip anymore as there is no GFP component in them.
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Unlike SQ-D Homeline AFCI, I believe QO AFCI is only available as a Dual-Function device, with 6mA Class-A GFCI, which tortuga had to remove from his kitchen, since not compatible with energy-efficient appliances.

Schneider SQ-D may have a monopoly on interrupting current ratings over 10k, with no need to develop AFCI tech, completely discontinued from QO equipment, as a stand-alone device.
 
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curt swartz said:
You touched each wire with you bare hand and it tripped or you touched the ground and neutral together and it tripped? We commonly will touch the ground to neutral together to trip AFCI's but there must be load on the circuit somewhere for them to trip.

I think the person that told Ramsy that touching both wires with their hand forgot to say the part that the wires also touch each other.
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ramsy said:
Unlike SQ-D Homeline AFCI, I believe QO AFCI is only available as a Dual-Function device, with 6mA Class-A GFCI, which tortuga had to remove from his kitchen, since not compatible with energy-efficient appliances.

Schneider SQ-D may have a monopoly on interrupting current ratings over 10k, with no need to develop AFCI tech, completely discontinued from QO equipment, as a stand-alone device.
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AFCI, GFCI and Dual function breakers are still available in the QO product line.

Could been temporary availability issues but they have not discontinued them.

I somewhat recently had to wait longer than expected just to get a standard 60 amp 2 pole breaker, no idea why.
 
kwired said:
AFCI, GFCI and Dual function breakers are still available in the QO product line.

Could been temporary availability issues but they have not discontinued them.

I somewhat recently had to wait longer than expected just to get a standard 60 amp 2 pole breaker, no idea why.
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Agree. If anything, the QO line is more complete than HOM.
 
If you don't know, there are two different TYPES of AFCI protection; Series and Parallel.

Series AFCI only looks for arcs from one part of a circuit to the next, like a broken wire. You may have an older Series type, which wouldn't pick up a paralleling arc.

Parallel looks for arcs that are going from one CIRCUIT to ground or neutral (or another line). This is ESSENTIALLY a GF circuit, but is looking for a HIGHER threshold of current mismatch, usually 20-30mA, so it is not truly a GFCI (but see blow).

Most newer AFCI breakers are now "Combination" (CAFCI) type that have both Series and Parallel AFCI detection.

When AFCI is combined with GFCI, is is called "Dual Function" (DFCI), and those are always GFCI + CAFIC.
 
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