AFCI breakers NOT tripping when they should

ramsy said:
Are you sure about that?

Did you check it yourself?
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The only AFCI breakers that sill have GFP are Eaton CH, Siemens Non Plug On Neutral, Square D HOM and Square D QO.
GE, Eaton BR and Siemens PON do not have GFP.

Square D AFCI breakers will trip on the ground to neutral connection if there is a load on the circuit. They will not trip if there is no load on the circuit.

You have stated many times that AFCI's will trip if you touch the ground and neutral at the same time with your hand. That is completely false and not possible. Even with GFP there needs to be 30-50ma of imbalance to trip the breaker. If there is a load on the circuit and you touch ground and neutral together while holding them they will trip but that has nothing to do with your hand/body.

A dual function or GFCI breaker might trip if you touch ground and neutral at the same time and there is an open neutral. You will definitely get a good shock though.
 
electrofelon said:
Just a note to the OP that because they had the neutrals bypassed/capped/not running through the breakers, and they were working meant they had no ground fault protection component, otherwise they would have tripped instantly.
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I don't think that's the case, because there were a couple of dual function arc/ground fault breakers bypassed in the same way. These aren't PON types; the breaker->neutral bar pigtail was also disconnected and capped off
 
curt swartz said:
You have stated many times that AFCI's will trip if you touch the ground and neutral at the same time with your hand. That is completely false and not possible.
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Since when is any xFCI nuisance trip Completely false and not possible?

Since when are the several different ways to nuisance trip any xFCI, repeatedly with no load, zero amps, Completely false and not possible?

What is it about resistance causing an AFCI nuisance trip that you can't believe? Let me guess: AFCI tech can't use integrated Ohm meters with different filters to pass UL1699/B, since it violates the algorithms?

"Completely false and not possible" is a common response to any observation that violates personal paradigms. The paradigm shift is up to you.

Any forum member that empirically repeats an AFCI nuisance trip with resistance is not required to prove theory, its just an observation.
 
WildCelt said:
I don't think that's the case, because there were a couple of dual function arc/ground fault breakers bypassed in the same way. These aren't PON types; the breaker->neutral bar pigtail was also disconnected and capped off
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Hmmm I wouldn't think that would work and would be seen as a ground fault immediately.... Maybe without the neutral connection the electronics that run the thing don't function?
 
electrofelon said:
Hmmm I wouldn't think that would work and would be seen as a ground fault immediately.... Maybe without the neutral connection the electronics that run the thing don't function?
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That's my thinking. I've seen it done a few times; this is just the first time I've seen that used so systemically in one house. Most of the time it seems to be some hack handyman trying to get something to work instead of a professional electrician wiring a house. >:/
 
WildCelt said:
That's my thinking. I've seen it done a few times; this is just the first time I've seen that used so systemically in one house. Most of the time it seems to be some hack handyman trying to get something to work instead of a professional electrician wiring a house. >:/
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Well this electrician wasn't professional either.
 
Its too bad they removed the 30ma Residual Current Protection (RCD) from the AFCI spec, I found that to be the most accurate and beneficial function of an AFCI.
When I replaced my own panel at home (finally) last summer I installed some ground fault protection of equipment (GFPE) breakers so I could get that RCD 30ma protection feature, I figure if enough current is flowing on any of my equipment grounds to trip a 30ma I need to look into it.
 
tortuga said:
Its too bad they removed the 30ma Residual Current Protection (RCD) from the AFCI spec, I found that to be the most accurate and beneficial function of an AFCI.
When I replaced my own panel at home (finally) last summer I installed some ground fault protection of equipment (GFPE) breakers so I could get that RCD 30ma protection feature, I figure if enough current is flowing on any of my equipment grounds to trip a 30ma I need to look into it.
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I could be convinced to go with gfpe instead of all AFCI and most of the new GFI requirements of the last several code cycles
 
tortuga said:
I figure if enough current is flowing on any of my equipment grounds to trip a 30ma I need to look into it.
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If specs are open for requests then GFPE alarms with location data would be my choice.

With xFCI costs an order of magnitude higher than thermal-magnetic devices, built-in CT's could ID Circuit number, and time domain reflectometry could plot location with length of home-run inputs, all with readily accessible WIFI data to eliminate control wiring.
 
ramsy said:
If specs are open for requests then GFPE alarms with location data would be my choice.

With xFCI costs an order of magnitude higher than thermal-magnetic devices, built-in CT's could ID Circuit number, and time domain reflectometry could plot location with length of home-run inputs, all with readily accessible WIFI data to eliminate control wiring.
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Wi-Fi breakers, something else for China to hack.
 
jaggedben said:
What Wayne said.

To repeat and clarify, a breaker that is labeled only as AFCI and not GFCI *may* trip on a neutral-ground fault, but should not be *expected* to.
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The early versions of AFCI's all had a GFP component to them. I believe most if not all were 30mA GFP. They had to have it to meet listing standards at that time.

I don't know what has changed but some have found ways to meet listing standards and not have GFP component to them.

As mentioned I believe GE was the first to not need GFP. They still have a neutral lead to power the electronics but the load neutral does not have to pass through the breaker in order to function properly.

Square D does still have GFP in both QO and Homeline versions. They will not trip with a GFCI plug in tester as it doesn't draw enough test current to trip 30mA level GFP. They possibly do not trip immediately on neutral to ground fault either, needs to be enough fault current flowing before they would. If there is a load on the circuit when the fault occurs then you have created a parallel path for neutral current and likely enough is flowing to trip immediately.

Of course all "Dual function" breakers have GFCI in them as well.
 
ramsy said:
I believe all types of AFCI trip by holding bare EGC & load Neutral in same hand, without touching each other.

This N-G resistance that trips all types of AFCI is considered a resistive fault, not to be confused with GFPE bolted N-G fault.
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I don't think you will even trip a GFCI by doing that.

If you do you are certain to feel the ~6 mA required to make it trip.

Unless maybe this is some kind of sarcasm comment?
 
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