mbrooke
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- Technician
Here is the UL study I was referring to btw on over driven staples:
http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/Investigation_Damage_Degradation_NMCables.pdf
AFCI Breakers
- Thread starter ACP
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Here is the UL study I was referring to btw on over driven staples:
http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/Investigation_Damage_Degradation_NMCables.pdf
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- Massachusetts
You lose me when you say things that are as untrue as the manufacturers say about their products.
From what I have read from a French electrician they do in fact nuisance trip.
mbrooke
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- United States
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Not what I have heard from UK sparkies on UK forums. Crack open a European RCD and its just a toroid coil with a solenoid. In terms of functionality an RCD is exactly like a GFCI, and if a GFCI is tripping than it is sensing a ground fault.
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- Placerville, CA, USA
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- Retired PV System Designer
And that would be a "nuisance trip" only if you were willing to tolerate a ground fault in the first place.
mbrooke
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- United States
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romex jockey
Senior Member
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- Vermont
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- electrician
From Arc Fault's longtime proponent ,Dr. Joe Engel , as well as the National Bureau of Standards
Past ROP's follow suit, a lot of effort has been aimed at CMP-2 for clarification.
The gain being some simply abhor 'shirt pocket rules'
~RJ~
romex jockey
Senior Member
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- Vermont
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- electrician
So what would you rather have creating nusiance trips then?
A simple time tested toroidal coil ?
Or 30-40 microprocessors the size of a pea , installed across the mains and subjected to power quality issues ?
Further, exactly what does an afci test button test? Does it not reset if said microprocessor looses it's ability to 'memorize arc's' (a manufacturer claim) Does it lock itself out when compromised, such as all the gfci ado? Can any of these claims be validated in the field?
~RJ~
mbrooke
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Ok, with the help of Google came across this in a Euro Forum:
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...02813-rcds-nuisance-tripping.html#post1107705
Even if (for the sake of the argument) European RCDs trip on conditions other than current imbalance (Euro sparks claim they don't), our US GFCIs/GFPs certainly do not.
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
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- McKinney, Texas
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Well..in your little FORUM world probably not....in the real world....Many Do !...and very mature...lol...:lol:
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
The real world also has many AFCIs and GFCI's being removed from service because someone did not like losing power - whether the device was finding a legitimate problem or not, they also are sometimes increasing overcurrent device settings for similar reasons - though you will find less "professionals" doing that compared to those removing an AFCI because they can't seem to find out why it keeps tripping.Well..in your little FORUM world probably not....in the real world....Many Do !...and very mature...lol...
- Location
- Massachusetts
Well..in your little FORUM world probably not....in the real world....Many Do !...and very mature...lol...
Strange, you are one of the very few that claims anyone but manufacturers like AFCIs.
Well I guess that is cool, the other 99.99% of those in the trade that do not like AFCIs can mail you all the AFCIs that they remove.
gaelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- Highlands Ranch, CO
My house was built in 2000. Not one AFCI in the panel controlling any circuit. Standard breakers with GFCI protection where required.
I sleep like a baby.
In my opinion AFCI is a hoax put onto the residential electrical trade as a way for the manufacturers and suppliers to rake in the cash.
I sleep like a baby.
In my opinion AFCI is a hoax put onto the residential electrical trade as a way for the manufacturers and suppliers to rake in the cash.
electricguy61
Senior Member
Strange, you are one of the very few that claims anyone but manufacturers like AFCIs.
Well I guess that is cool, the other 99.99% of those in the trade that do not like AFCIs can mail you all the AFCIs that they remove.
Unfortunately, I have seen this done after inspection. I would wonder about liability if a lawyer got a hold of it.
But the reality, as stated in comments above and so many times before it has become ad nauseam, is that AFCI's don't do what they're supposed to do, and the manufacturers don't care because they're now selling a product that costs at least 5 times as much as the old product.
It's the residential EC's that have taken the burden of these useless breakers.
Tony S
Senior Member
- Location
- Resting under the Major Oak UK
First off, where did you read that?
Like any sensitive equipment a RCD may trip on current imbalance, it isn?t a regular occurrence. Items with SMPS have an inherent leakage, too many on a circuit and they will trip just as a GFCI will.
When RCD?s came out they were a bit temperamental, that?s 40+ years ago.
As you know from the other side, there?s usually an underlying fault causing the trip. Spurious tripping is very rare, electricians trying to find a get out is more common.
Now we use current ramp testing the actual time/current curve is recorded in situe for every RCD unit installed.
The RCD and RCBO?s in my flat were tested just before I moved in. A month ago I had an independent test carried out, the results were within 2% of the previous results.
The tests were carried out by someone you know Mr Brooke's ;-) He?s a stickler for the regulations.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
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- United States
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- Technician
Good to know those RCDs are functioning
Before RCDs didn't they have voltage operated earth leakage detectors for TT networks?
Personally the NEC should have just moved GFCIs to the branch circuit origin and left it at that. Same protection no headaches. But the way I see it being marketing. By creating AFCIs and claiming them as something separate from GFCI you end up with 2 different price points, and when you add self testing GFCIs (because of the electronics) you have 3 times more per circuit profit. Big bummer is the US doesn't use sub-main GFCIs, so you get the picture. :happysad:
Before RCDs didn't they have voltage operated earth leakage detectors for TT networks?
Personally the NEC should have just moved GFCIs to the branch circuit origin and left it at that. Same protection no headaches. But the way I see it being marketing. By creating AFCIs and claiming them as something separate from GFCI you end up with 2 different price points, and when you add self testing GFCIs (because of the electronics) you have 3 times more per circuit profit. Big bummer is the US doesn't use sub-main GFCIs, so you get the picture. :happysad:
- Location
- Massachusetts
An electrcian that lives and works in both Paris and Wisconsin. But I will conceded that is pretty thin.
But you just confirmed it.
My understanding is the RCDs are used in the main supply so that a trip takes out all the power not just a branch circuit. I find that unexceptable as I think most customers would.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Good to know those RCDs are functioning
Before RCDs didn't they have voltage operated earth leakage detectors for TT networks?
So you do not have first hand experiance with these units you are pushing?
Seems odd.
I agree.
They are not prohibited by any code, only prohibited by intelligent design. A single ground fault in a branch circuit should not dump an entire panel. That would be 'big bummer'.
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
- Location
- Massachusetts
Do you own a code book Mr Iwre?
You know I do.
Do you know the difference between GFCI and GFP?
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