- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
...I am sure they would like to hear it.
...
The
really says it all...they don't want to hear anything that says they may have been wrong.
AFCI Breakers
- Thread starter ACP
- Start date
- Status
The
really says it all...they don't want to hear anything that says they may have been wrong.
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
- Location
- McKinney, Texas
- Occupation
- CEO
The
That wink was not stating that....their is only a few manufacturers on that panel...the rest are industry advocates and so on.....so I am sure they will welcome your thoughts.
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
- Location
- McKinney, Texas
- Occupation
- CEO
FYI - Their are 11 voting members on CMP 2 - Only 3 of them represent manufacturers of the devices. The other 8 are Inspector Association Members Reps, Home Builders Association Reps, UL , Intertek, Utility Companies, Municipal Inspectors, Electrician Associations like like IBEW and IEC and so on.The
So you have 8 other CMP individuals who must drink from the TEA of lies.......I would think you could convince the majority with your factual data......give it a shot my friend. I am not on this specific panel but I would gladly step out of mine to witness the presentation.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
I respect where you are coming from, but out of curiosity has the CMP ever studied IEC based codes (like BS7671) before implementing AFCIs? It seems other countries have a low cost solution (GFP + low magnetic trip) instead of expensive AFCIs for dealing with cable faults.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
There have been any number of well substantiated proposals that were shot down by that panel. They have been sold a bill of goods, and they will never, no matter what is presented to them, reverse this rule.
The code is charged with "practical safeguarding" from hazards of an electrical nature. To me that would include a reasonable cost benefit. That is something that does not exist, even if you assume that the AFCI would be 100% effective in preventing fires that are of electrical origin.
Have you ever really looked at the numbers and the costs? How many fires do you think would be prevented in the first year of compliance with the 2014 AFCI rule, assuming that 100% of the new dwelling units would be compliant with the rule and assuming that the AFCI is 100% effective.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I have never suggested this is a manufacturers issue...the panel was just sold a bill of goods by some very good salesmen.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
UL's report titled "Evaluation of Run Length and Available Current on Breaker Ability to Mitigate Parallel Arcing Faults" strongly supports the idea that a lower magnetic trip would be better.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
That is one of the issues with the code making process...the little guy can't really make a presentation to the panel. It would cost me a couple of thousand dollars to do that when you look at lost wages, travel, lodging and food.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
As does this:
http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf
But it begs the question, are the stud fires from over driven staples or nails really arc faults?
From the paper:
My question: how was the conclusion reached, or proven that the mechanism of action was short circuit current or insulation break down trigger an arc fault which lead to stud charring? What if insulation broke down (on the hot conductor) years prior energizing the staple with 120 volts (but not involving neutral or ground) leading to pyrophoric carbonization of the stud? Something like this but involving 120 volts rather than an energized grounding system:
http://www.mikeholt.com/htmlnews/grounding/un250-66.jpg
Current trickling into wood years on end produces no arc signature, so in turn arc logic provides no protection against this. If that is the case behind over driven staple fires then the very theory of arcing used to help get AFCIs into the code and market them is completely false based entirely on pure assumption.
In fact the UL study you mentioned actually contradicts the arc fault theory half way:
http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/Investigation_Damage_Degradation_NMCables.pdf
According to the paper an over driven staple alone does not produce an arc. In order for an arc to take place the path must first be carbonized with a 5kv break down current, not something you will find in most home wiring. If homes are indeed getting 5kv surges over time, that same voltage spike will render the electronics within AFCIs useless, failing to stop the very hazard they claim.
Instead of relying AFCIs to catch compromised insulation that may not even produce an arc signature, requiring insulation resistance testing on new wiring by a megger would have been a better, more relaible option while being less costly.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
"Stick it to the consumer"......I think not. Granite counter has to be one of the most fire proof items you can have in a house. There should be a lot more of it. It's not an upgrade it is an investment in safety and piece of mind.
BIG difference is the consumer doesn?t get stuck with them because they are not required, he gets to choose
What AFCI's are designed to detect seems to change with each new batch that comes out in attempt to get rid of legitimate nuisance trips.
Any of those TV's on a circuit fed by an AFCI?
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
- Location
- McKinney, Texas
- Occupation
- CEO
Yes, I am sure Granite Counter Tops have saved alot of homes from eminent disaster.....let's thank the Stone Industry for that impressive life saving advancement:angel:
Do you guys really hear what you are saying....lol.....it's like you are all placing AFCI's in the same vein as UFO's....Alas....I think I told myself (on multiple occasions) that I am not the one to lead this fight FOR the AFCI industry.....they know about the debates here because I have told them about it.......Eaton Knows and Schneider Knows....and Siemens Knows and the experts are out there.....I will leave it to them to defend their products....I support AFCI's based on MY experience with them as a Master Electrician and Chief Electrical Inspector.......it only enhanced it when I became a NEMA REP because I could ask the questions to the sources and I agreed with the responses (Yes, I drink the same Tainted Tea you speak of)......BUT....I am also a code guy and if the code says use them I use them and gladly pass the cost on to my customer not because I can, it's because I believe they offer some merit and anything that might add safety to my family and my home I am putting in and promoting...
So you can support them or rebuke them.....I don't work for a company that makes them, I don't represent an association that promotes them....I just as a Master Electrician like many of you...believe in them. I accept their possible flaws but I also accept their ability to do what they say they can do...I also believe in the Bible as well.....so I have faith in BOTH being accurate.
electricguy61
Senior Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
electricguy61
Senior Member
You hold a Master Electricians license: How many customers to you have that have had to put up with the constant nuisance tripping of AFCI's?
I too have absolute trust in the Bible. Putting ones' faith in AFCI's on the same level is ludicrous.
- Location
- Massachusetts
You where the one that brought granite counters into this discussion. You seemed to be saying builders where screwing their customers by providing something the customer has asked for.
That is much different then a code requirement forcing the customer to have granite counters.
Not in the same vein as UFOs, more like junk science and lies by the manufacturers.
We all know they know, we also know they don't care how we feel, they are making money anyway because we are required to use the product if we want to or not.
Anyone should have the option to use AFCI if they choose. The rub is the NEC requiring products that are not doing the job they are claiming they do.
Let's leave the bible out of this or someone is sure to be offended by opposing views.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I really don't care what your past experiences are, though I still give you some benefit of doubt that you do know something because of your experiences. The average consumer doesn't care either, they just want things to work and in general have no idea what is safe and what isn't. Then they get all these recalls on products that were supposed to be safe and it just worsens their confidence in what is manufactured, I talking about all consumer products not specifically electrical products here.
Maybe these AFCI products are what you say they are, I really don't know. Most of us that are the link between the manufacturer, code and end user are being pulled in multiple directions because in our installer world, they mostly create "nuisance" and extra expense, at least that is what the consumers are seeing. You need to convince the final user they are worthwhile before you will make our life easier. I don't see that happening during my lifetime. I am sold on effectiveness and benefits of GFCI technology, but still have a hard time convincing users of why it is necessary, now I have to push something that even I don't fully understand to the end user, this is a major reason I don't get much excitement on residential work and have limited what I do for residential work ever since this State finally dropped their amendments that did remove AFCI requirements. Last NEC we amended to eliminate AFCI was 2005. Once 2008 was adopted AFCI's were part of it and as written in the code. We were behind the rest of the county with troubles that are out there because not many were using them and gaining any experience with issues that others elsewhere already knew about.
I don't see AFCI's like UFO's, the U is unidentified, AFCI's were made by man, somebody knows what was put into them. They may have overlooked some issues in their design though. If Eaton, Schneider, Siemens, etc. all know about the debates here they why don't they join the debates and present what they have? They will either expose what some think is true or will actually educate us on what they have, until they do, they do appear to be hiding. I imagine they have taken some steps in a good direction, but forcing consumers to use something that isn't exactly proven to do it's function, or do it reliably is not popular among consumers either. There has to be some middle ground that is suitable for a majority.
I believe in codes as well, but doesn't mean I agree with everything that is in those codes. As with any democratically obtained sets of rules there are going to be some that don't totally agree with the final results, and every individual's wants and needs are different.
Assuming these devices are what they are all cracked up to be, what assurance do we have that after they are 25-40 years old that they still protect the wiring that is likely starting to develop some of the problems they are supposed to protect us against?
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
I wonder how many times these things will need to be changed out over the next 25 years just to accommadate new technology.
I have already had to change out some when the homeowner purchased a new TV. They seem to work with other appliances but tripped when the new TV was installed. This new version of Arc Fault breaker seems to work with this TV but will it work with future models.
Tony S
Senior Member
- Location
- Resting under the Major Oak UK
I stated I had both the RCD and RCBO?s ramp tested which is a quite complex test as it involves the leakage current being gradually increased to find the trip threshold including a DC element, that equates to two tests+ & -. An impulse test then finds the response time.
This test is carried out for every residual current device in a new instalation.
My flat has two ring mains fed off a RCD my lighting circuits are fed via RCBO?s (Residual Current Breaker with Overload protection). If a fault occurred, I wouldn?t loose everything.
I?ve asked about testing GFCI?s on here before. If anyone was to suggest ?pressing the test button? as an acceptable test in the UK they would be laughed at.
Mr Brookes, I?ll e-mail a drawing of the early VOELCB later this evening.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
I use the Arc Fault breakers and pass the cost on to the customer because I don't have any choice and the customer acccepts this cost because they don't have any choice.
I saw a house where they had a panel filled with Arc Fault breakers ( panel moved more than 6 ft). The code requires these Arc Fault breakers. But there were not even smoke detectors in the house or carbon monoxide detectors ( not required ).
Given the choice of where to spend some money I know where I would spend it. If they have a fire it may not be electrical and it probably won't be fire that kills them but smoke inhalation.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
We need some sort of "applause" emoticon.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
We laugh at them when they start talking about "glands". Doesn't sound very electrical.
- Status