AFCI Breakers

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Tony S said:
I?ve asked about testing GFCI?s on here before. If anyone was to suggest ?pressing the test button? as an acceptable test in the UK they would be laughed at.
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Serious this time.

The test button does seem a bit simple but can you prove it doesn't work? The folks at UL seem to think it's good enough and they gave it their approval.
 
Tony S said:
I stated I had both the RCD and RCBO?s ramp tested which is a quite complex test as it involves the leakage current being gradually increased to find the trip threshold including a DC element, that equates to two tests+ & -. An impulse test then finds the response time.

This test is carried out for every residual current device in a new instalation.

My flat has two ring mains fed off a RCD my lighting circuits are fed via RCBO?s (Residual Current Breaker with Overload protection). If a fault occurred, I wouldn?t loose everything.

I?ve asked about testing GFCI?s on here before. If anyone was to suggest ?pressing the test button? as an acceptable test in the UK they would be laughed at.

Mr Brookes, I?ll e-mail a drawing of the early VOELCB later this evening.
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Thanks! :D

Just for to show the US folks, do you have a pic of the consumer unit? Or one using an RCD that feeds multiple MCBs? I still cant believe this option was never offered for AFCIs. If folks in the UK saw Im sure they would be laughing even harder. :lol:
 
growler said:
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I have already had to change out some when the homeowner purchased a new TV. They seem to work with other appliances but tripped when the new TV was installed. This new version of Arc Fault breaker seems to work with this TV but will it work with future models.
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Why does that have to be the customers problem? That is a defective design of the AFCI and the labor and material costs to replace the AFCI with one that functions correctly should be the responsibility of the original AFCI manufacturer.
 
growler said:
... If they have a fire it may not be electrical and it probably won't be fire that kills them but smoke inhalation.
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It is likely that any fire would not be from electrical. Less than 15% of dwelling unit fires are said to be of an electrical origin.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Why does that have to be the customers problem? That is a defective design of the AFCI and the labor and material costs to replace the AFCI with one that functions correctly should be the responsibility of the original AFCI manufacturer.
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Exactly. I pray every day that these things get installed in the right lawyer's house and a class action suite is born.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Why does that have to be the customers problem? That is a defective design of the AFCI and the labor and material costs to replace the AFCI with one that functions correctly should be the responsibility of the original AFCI manufacturer.
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Maybe the AFCI manufacturers can add a USB port and change to the safety razor business model:
The breaker is cheap and you pay for software updates to keep up with nuisance trips?
 
Tony S said:
I?ve asked about testing GFCI?s on here before. If anyone was to suggest ?pressing the test button? as an acceptable test in the UK they would be laughed at.
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Tony, that response suggests to me that you do not understand how our GFCIs and their test buttons work or that fact it is the only way to test them when they are not connected to equipment grounding conductor as is often the case in older homes.


The test button on a GFCI is a legitimate test of its function.


That said I have no idea if the above holds true for our AFCIs.
 
growler said:
I use the Arc Fault breakers and pass the cost on to the customer because I don't have any choice and the customer acccepts this cost because they don't have any choice.
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Exactly and that is why the manufacturers do not have to listen or respond to any complaints of the users.

I saw a house where they had a panel filled with Arc Fault breakers ( panel moved more than 6 ft). The code requires these Arc Fault breakers. But there were not even smoke detectors in the house or carbon monoxide detectors ( not required ).

Given the choice of where to spend some money I know where I would spend it. If they have a fire it may not be electrical and it probably won't be fire that kills them but smoke inhalation.
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Exactly, put the money into more effective items.
 
mbrooke said:
Or one using an RCD that feeds multiple MCBs? I still cant believe this option was never offered for AFCIs.
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1) If you where the manufacturer of AFCIs would you rather sell 1 or 40 to each homeowner

2) If you where the electrician forced to install AFCIs that we all know nuisance trip would you rather the customer was put entirely or even 50% in the dark or limit it to just one circuit. Please no snap answer, put yourself in the customers position. Would you be happy if each time you tried using your tread mill 50%~100% of the power goes out?

3) If you had to troubleshoot a tripping AFCI for free* would you rather it have one circuit or 20 circuits connected to it?


(*I say free as that happens often as customers call expecting warranty service on new installations and many ECs feel obligated to do so to keep their good reputation)

Lets dump AFCIs and find something else to use at the branch circuit level, be it RCD, GFCI or lower instantaneous trip ratings.
 
GoldDigger said:
Maybe the AFCI manufacturers can add a USB port and change to the safety razor business model:
The breaker is cheap and you pay for software updates to keep up with nuisance trips?
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:lol:

Bluetooth and each one stays in contact with the manufacturer, if you don't pay for updates they shut the circuits off remotely.
 
electricguy61 said:
You hold a Master Electricians license: How many customers to you have that have had to put up with the constant nuisance tripping of AFCI's?

I too have absolute trust in the Bible. Putting ones' faith in AFCI's on the same level is ludicrous.
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You can have your opinion....but since you are playing GOD and judging others.......So be it.....

I have faith in AFCI'd doing what they say they can do.......not what they say they cant do....

Signed,

Ludicrous
 
electricguy61 said:
You hold a Master Electricians license: How many customers to you have that have had to put up with the constant nuisance tripping of AFCI's?

I too have absolute trust in the Bible. Putting ones' faith in AFCI's on the same level is ludicrous.
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To answer the question about the nuisance tripping...I do not call any activation of an AFCI or GFCI a nuisance trip...I call it an opportunity to find the problem...you can label it what you want as I have done my fair share of troubleshooting.......

Look I really don't care if you all like or hate AFCI's....it is not my mission....but I have an opinion of them that is just as valid as your opinion to dislike them....Respect it
 
kwired said:
I really don't care what your past experiences are, though I still give you some benefit of doubt that you do know something because of your experiences. The average consumer doesn't care either, they just want things to work and in general have no idea what is safe and what isn't. Then they get all these recalls on products that were supposed to be safe and it just worsens their confidence in what is manufactured, I talking about all consumer products not specifically electrical products here.

Maybe these AFCI products are what you say they are, I really don't know. Most of us that are the link between the manufacturer, code and end user are being pulled in multiple directions because in our installer world, they mostly create "nuisance" and extra expense, at least that is what the consumers are seeing. You need to convince the final user they are worthwhile before you will make our life easier. I don't see that happening during my lifetime. I am sold on effectiveness and benefits of GFCI technology, but still have a hard time convincing users of why it is necessary, now I have to push something that even I don't fully understand to the end user, this is a major reason I don't get much excitement on residential work and have limited what I do for residential work ever since this State finally dropped their amendments that did remove AFCI requirements. Last NEC we amended to eliminate AFCI was 2005. Once 2008 was adopted AFCI's were part of it and as written in the code. We were behind the rest of the county with troubles that are out there because not many were using them and gaining any experience with issues that others elsewhere already knew about.

I don't see AFCI's like UFO's, the U is unidentified, AFCI's were made by man, somebody knows what was put into them. They may have overlooked some issues in their design though. If Eaton, Schneider, Siemens, etc. all know about the debates here they why don't they join the debates and present what they have? They will either expose what some think is true or will actually educate us on what they have, until they do, they do appear to be hiding. I imagine they have taken some steps in a good direction, but forcing consumers to use something that isn't exactly proven to do it's function, or do it reliably is not popular among consumers either. There has to be some middle ground that is suitable for a majority.

I believe in codes as well, but doesn't mean I agree with everything that is in those codes. As with any democratically obtained sets of rules there are going to be some that don't totally agree with the final results, and every individual's wants and needs are different.


Assuming these devices are what they are all cracked up to be, what assurance do we have that after they are 25-40 years old that they still protect the wiring that is likely starting to develop some of the problems they are supposed to protect us against?
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We have no assurance of the longevity...you are 100% correct and I do highly respect everything you have stated. I am not here (nor anywhere) to be the poster boy for AFCI's...I just give you my opinion that they function as intended, while not perfect and we can always debate a glowing connection versus an ARC...the point is I believe in them to the point I added them to all my branch circuits in the house I just bought back last year in McKinney TX.....Yes, on my OWN dime as I do not work for an AFCI Manufacturer.....that was my choice...call me crazy, ludicrous or what ever you all usually call me.....the fact is I did it because I believe in them and I think they have merit....I do not mind spending $500.00 dollars on the extra piece of mind they give me and my family......a choice I MADE.....

I don't want to convince you or anyone...I am just giving my belief.....and my experience as I did travel around a lot ( yes, again any time I speak of any traveling or teaching...I am Bragging...I know...I get it...)....and I did not hear of the huge issues as you all have experienced. I also was a contractor for 16 years before I sold my business and I never experienced the same issues as you all and indeed had times where the AFCI devices did do what they were supposed to do which is why I founded my opinion...am I not entitled to that?

I also do not believe for a minute that people are not having some issues...even the manufacturers have stated that and are working on those select issues but based on the number sold and volumes installed I do not think (in my case anyway) that I prefer to er on the side of caution and thus I installed them....sorry if others disagree.

If I am buying a house I am not going to concern myself with the additional cost of $500.00-$600.00....but thats me and I do hear you and understand many have had issues with them....I can only tell you my experience.

I know enough about them to feel confident in them.....thus I support them. You all obviously know way more knowledge of them than I do so the FAITH reference I have in them......and if that "bible" reference offends anyone....tough.....i guess we are at the point that anything said is considered offensive.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
.and if that "bible" reference offends anyone....tough.....i guess we are at the point that anything said is considered offensive.
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No I was not offended in the least, but you or other believers may be when people respond to it with other views.

It is better for this electrical forum if we leave keep our religious beliefs and thoughts to ourselves.

Besides they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
 
These worthless devices were forced down our throats by overzealous jackasses who call themselves code authorities, who never met a rule they didn't like. They have long refused to address the issue that inferior wiring methods (chiefly backstabbing) have caused most of the problems the devices were supposed to "fix". I have replaced dozens of backstabbed devices that were "protected" by AFCI breakers that never tripped.

I have been fortunate to see only a few afci's nuisance tripping but am still angry at how much business has been lost because of the increased costs brought on by these devices.

Code authorities, open wide so we can shove them back down YOUR throats. Manufacturers, who probably bribed the authorities, you get in line too.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
I do not mind spending $500.00 dollars on the extra piece of mind they give me and my family......a choice I MADE.

If I am buying a house I am not going to concern myself with the additional cost of $500.00-$600.00....
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As an electrician you may get by with spending $500-$600 on materials but for the average homeowner it's going to cost a bit more than that.

For the average homeowner the cost doesn't stop when they buy the house. After the warranty is up on the home then every time there is a problem they have to call an electrician.

Here is something that hasn't been brought up. Testing the Arc Fault, I have a Siemen's package right in front of me. It says to test every month, especially in thunder-storm season.
How many of these do you think ever get tested? I wonder how many homeowner even know they are supposed to be tested. They do make sure to state that's it's required by code on the package.
 
growler said:
. Testing the Arc Fault, I have a Siemen's package right in front of me. It says to test every month, especially in thunder-storm season.
How many of these do you think ever get tested? I wonder how many homeowner even know they are supposed to be tested. They do make sure to state that's it's required by code on the package.
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Testing AFCI's sure just like homeowners test their GFCI's. More than likely NEVER. How many people test their smoke detectors monthly ? At least changing smoke alarm batteries has been drilled into our heads coincident with Standard Time/Daylight Saving Time.(courtesy Duracell,Eveready, Energizer et al)
 
John120/240 said:
Testing AFCI's sure just like homeowners test their GFCI's. More than likely NEVER. How many people test their smoke detectors monthly ? At least changing smoke alarm batteries has been drilled into our heads coincident with Standard Time/Daylight Saving Time.(courtesy Duracell,Eveready, Energizer et al)
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I rarely check my own GFCI receptacles (no GFCI breakers yet....), but I do test the GFCIs in public places that I visit. About 30% are not working.

I also push TEST buttons on emergency lighting. :angel:
 
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