AFCI Breakers

[romex jockey]

How is it even theoretically possible for a breaker to detect an incandescent high-resistance splice or termination?

It's a lot more possible when those responsible for listing create a standard to fit their testing


~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

Same here. :thumbsup:

I consider everything I hear from manufacturers and their representatives like Bryan about AFCI's to be pure propaganda and deception. They started with a lie and they have to continue lying to cover their tracks. They had an opportunity to turn back early on but they are well beyond that point now.

Along with hiding inconvenient truths :happyno: The 15kv part being left out is just pure gold.

How dumb to these people think we are?

 

[mbrooke]

How is it even theoretically possible for a breaker to detect an incandescent high-resistance splice or termination? It's just one more resistive load.

There might be detectable non-linearities, but the same is true for a lot of electronic devices that might get plugged in. All those point contacts and metal-oxide junctions remind me of diode design, but lots of people plug in things with diodes.

What can a breaker "see" sitting in the panel to distinguish a glowing connection from an incandescent light bulb or other load? Doesn't the protection have to be located in each box in the circuit?

Its possible. Eaton is working on a system where voltage monitors are placed on the ends of each circuit which look for fall of potential and then send a trip single to the breaker when an imbalance is detected. This would be the result from voltage drop across a high resistance connection.



https://www.google.com/patents/US88...a=X&ei=FLGYVcPmOIfVoASmopfYBQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ



Of course the above is a marketing wet dream.


The correct, reliable and low cost way to do this is through self fusing wire splices. It actually costs next to nothing. However thats not something you will likely see because Eaton would rather have hundreds of dollars worth of wifi microprocessor on each circuit that doesn't do as claimed.

There is a low cost solution to everything, but that is not something you will ever experience from manufacturers and their CMP representatives.

 

[ActionDave]

I am really sorry you feel that way Don...

Was Ptolemy lying when his model of the solar system placed the Earth at its center? Was Thomas Edison lying when he stated the following way back in 1881, "I beg to say that the system of Electric Lighting of the Edison Electric Light Company is absolutely free from any possible danger from fire, even in connection with the most inflammable material". I really don't think so. While proven quite false with time, both really believed the validity of these ideas at the moment in time they were professed.

Interesting way to try and buttress your argument.

I agree that it is quite unfortunate that the first generation AFCIs did not turn out to be everything they were intended and proclaimed be.

And yet there was no stepping back or even holding off on the expansion of AFCI requirements.

But I also feel it is quite fortunate that the manufacturers have made diligent efforts to correct that mistake with new and better technology AND continue to work on that technology to fill all the performance gaps that have been discovered &/or learned with time and experience....

Bless their little hearts.

"Hi I'm an AFCI manufacture and I want to make your house safer" may take the place of "Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help." as the most feared phrase in the English language.

 

[romex jockey]

Interesting way to try and buttress your argument.

fitting....

Edison bought his brains , and had wall street in his back pocket

His alleged laboratory trial & error perseverance was due to lack of fundamental theory

He also stiffed the only employee who had a clue.....

~RJ~

 

[bphgravity]

Dang. For about 8 half-cycles within a period of 0.5 seconds I actually thought I was going to have a couple of converters. And to think I was first in my class at NEMA brainwashing school. I guess I will go back to stealing candy from babies and checking out books from libraries and never taking them back. You guys are just too smart for me...

I really do understand what's going on here. Everybody wants to be a rebel fighting the good fight against the big oppressive industrial machine. It's in the American DNA to want to want to see yourself as the underdog trying to overcome unsurpassable odds. Why? Because if you actually win, if you actually turn out to be right; the pride and joy you feel is spectacular. It's not so fun succeeding when you already knew you were going to. On the other hand, if you lose, if you turn out to be wrong; well you're the underdog, there was nothing you could to do. The opposition was just too powerful and corrupt. You can't be blamed and shouldn't have to take responsibility for being on the wrong side of things. It's an amazingly convenient position to put your self into.

I have been in quite a few horse races during my career as an electrical professional. I haven't picked the wrong horse yet. Some of these races are longer than others and some have yet to be run. The AFCI race is still underway. My experience and intellect tells me I'm on still on the right horse.

I'll make you all a promise. When my horse comes in first place, I will not come back here and gloat. Okay, maybe just a little...

 

[romex jockey]

May i remind you the original NEMA afci 'task force' admitted it's failure to produce a standard Byran.

What you are insinuating is ,NEMA's answer is to simply cherrypick it's task force membership until they've something that works for them

But it doesn't end there.....

UL & the CSPC follow suit, as well as perennial CMP-2 members and alternates , all swingin' for 210.12. Those that pay closer attention will note the same names for decades.

This is what occurs in a $$$$ industry, greased from the sanctimonious CEO's to their NEMA minions on down to their trade rags and sales reps

I would really like to follow the $$$ on all involved , but i have no $$ to do so, and it takes $$ to fight big $$. Being no more than an ex-FF and redneck sparky essentially makes me dirt howling in the ascii wilderness in their view.

And you know what? I'm ok with that....Go ahead gloat......put us down .... revel in unmitigated gall of it if you'd like






We'll be around.....


Good day sir!



~RJ~

 

[mopowr steve]

Horse or No horse who's footing the bill for trouble calls of nuisance-tripped AFCI's.
Thats right, the contractor! Unless you have a manufacturers phone number/address that will cover these costs I'd be glad to send them a bill.
All the while pissing off customers which creates a loss of faithfulness in the electrical community and hence loosing work because of it, which in turn means less work less employees for the upcoming necessary repairs when these things catch actual hazardous conditions. Way I see it, there aren't enough residential electricians Period let alone enough that have troubleshooting skills to find/fix these problems.
They just needed to be perfected a bit further before sending them out into the mainstream.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Horse or No horse who's footing the bill for trouble calls of nuisance-tripped AFCI's.
Thats right, the contractor! Unless you have a manufacturers phone number/address that will cover these costs I'd be glad to send them a bill.

This is why you mark up materials. If this is not enough you then need to figure a bit more for installation of afci. I have so few problems with them I don't figure any more than I usually do.

These same arguments were around when gfci breakers & receptacles came on the market

 

[kwired]

This is why you mark up materials. If this is not enough you then need to figure a bit more for installation of afci. I have so few problems with them I don't figure any more than I usually do.

These same arguments were around when gfci breakers & receptacles came on the market

I was not in the trade when GFCI's were introduced, I was in the trade when they made their biggest expansion when it comes to places where they were required by code.

Though the were misunderstood by typical user, and still are, I have always been able to understand the basics of what makes them work and was able to find the problem when there was troubles with them. IMO the AFCI doesn't belong in the same conversation as GFCI when it comes to what protection they provide, how reliable they may be, or even whether they do what they are intended to do.

GFCI is understood pretty well even by some that don't have a lot of technical background, but AFCI as you can see from some posts on forums even have some of those highly regarded by their technical knowledge uncertain about what is up with them.

Now if they someday make a device that does do what it is claimed to do, and make it so it has little issues or at least can successfully educate us how to deal with them effectively, then they will have something worthwhile, until then they are sucking in consumers $$ on something consumers do not want forced on them, and are getting a whole lot of "free" real world testing laboratory with which they are taking full advantage of with what improvements they do make to the product.

 

[mbrooke]

I think people need to know that lowered magnetic trip and GFP in AFCIs is doing nearly all the work.

 

[peter d]

Its possible. Eaton is working on a system where voltage monitors are placed on the ends of each circuit which look for fall of potential and then send a trip single to the breaker when an imbalance is detected. This would be the result from voltage drop across a high resistance connection.



https://www.google.com/patents/US88...a=X&ei=FLGYVcPmOIfVoASmopfYBQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ



Of course the above is a marketing wet dream.

Sounds far too impractical for residential application. It seems like a utility product.

The correct, reliable and low cost way to do this is through self fusing wire splices. It actually costs next to nothing. However thats not something you will likely see because Eaton would rather have hundreds of dollars worth of wifi microprocessor on each circuit that doesn't do as claimed.

There is a low cost solution to everything, but that is not something you will ever experience from manufacturers and their CMP representatives.

It's the same reason we have AFCI instead of GFPE/RCD.

 

[peter d]

Here's the thing that really irks me about this whole AFCI debacle. The people pushing them are assuming they can be heros and save the world from electrical fires. They don't live in reality. There can never be a perfect electrical system free of faults and defects as long as humans are involved. Furthermore, AFCI's will be removed or not installed at all if trouble with them continues like it is.

 

[mbrooke]

Sounds far too impractical for residential application. It seems like a utility product.

Impractical is an understatement. More like delusional grandiosity :lol:

It's the same reason we have AFCI instead of GFPE/RCD.

Yup! :rant:

 

[mbrooke]

Dang. For about 8 half-cycles within a period of 0.5 seconds I actually thought I was going to have a couple of converters. And to think I was first in my class at NEMA brainwashing school. I guess I will go back to stealing candy from babies and checking out books from libraries and never taking them back. You guys are just too smart for me...

GFP and lowered magnetic trip is doing all the work in most of those tests. In fact if I submitted a GFCI breaker to those exact same UL 1699 tests it would pass 9 out of 10 tests.

If I subjected a British consumer unit (and plug top for zip cord tests) they would most likely pass every single test minus the series arc generator all without a single semi conductor. You tell me how that's possible.

I really do understand what's going on here. Everybody wants to be a rebel fighting the good fight against the big oppressive industrial machine. It's in the American DNA to want to want to see yourself as the underdog trying to overcome unsurpassable odds. Why? Because if you actually win, if you actually turn out to be right; the pride and joy you feel is spectacular. It's not so fun succeeding when you already knew you were going to. On the other hand, if you lose, if you turn out to be wrong; well you're the underdog, there was nothing you could to do. The opposition was just too powerful and corrupt. You can't be blamed and shouldn't have to take responsibility for being on the wrong side of things. It's an amazingly convenient position to put your self into.

I have been in quite a few horse races during my career as an electrical professional. I haven't picked the wrong horse yet. Some of these races are longer than others and some have yet to be run. The AFCI race is still underway. My experience and intellect tells me I'm on still on the right horse.

I'll make you all a promise. When my horse comes in first place, I will not come back here and gloat. Okay, maybe just a little...

People aren't dumb, they are smart enough know how things work. If people don't try to better the human condition it will only get worse. Creating complex solutions to problems that don't exist and then mandating them isn't moving forward.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...And to think I was first in my class at NEMA brainwashing school. ...

I am sure that is very close to the truth for anyone who works as a spokesman for any manufacturer or organization that represents manufacturers.

 

[mivey]

I really do understand what's going on here.

Do you? How about folks being upset about being lied to? How can you hope to win trust if you ignore history and pretend it did not happen or try to gloss over it by saying something dismissive similar to "oh there were some difficulties" as if it was a minor glitch? If the CMP members don't think people were lied to then they are not in touch with reality. Come clean and then be heard.

I have been in quite a few horse races during my career as an electrical professional. I haven't picked the wrong horse yet. Some of these races are longer than others and some have yet to be run. The AFCI race is still underway. My experience and intellect tells me I'm on still on the right horse.

I'll make you all a promise. When my horse comes in first place, I will not come back here and gloat. Okay, maybe just a little...

So the ends justify the means? Nice.:roll:

 

[bphgravity]

People have been very successful getting the NEC changed without spending a dime. Now some changes require a little more substantiation than just a good idea. That's where associations like the IAEI are of such great benefit to be a member of. You can submit an idea for a code change proposal to the your local Division, Chapter, or Section. These proposals get distributed to the entire membership for comments. Sometimes a proposal gets so much attention, it ends up getting a lot of time and money put into it to make sure it is successful. All from one or a small group of persons.

A good case in point would be extra duty in-use outlet box hoods. On the surface, it looks like a NEMA proposal, but it's actually a proposal on behalf of a collaborative effort. Both OSHA and the IAEI petitioned NEMA and its members to do something about the quality of the standard in-use covers. They were simply not holding up in real-world applications per the installation requirements of A406 & A590. This OSHA/IAEI petition resulted in all the major manufacturers coming together to find a solution. A bunch of time and dollars went into getting the applicable UL standards updated, a improved product to market, and a NEC code change to correct the problem.

And by the way, when the NRTLs evaluate an enclosure to ensure it meets the provisions to be installed in a wet location, they don't wait for it to rain. They have rain simulators. When the FIU hurricane testing center is evaluating a window for impact rating, they don't wait for a hurricane to make landfall. They have wind simulators. Just about every single listed electrical product is tested on a simulator of some kind. This is not special or unique to AFCIs. Some bad things only happen after other bad things have happened first. This is the case with arc-faults. Not conditioning the cable specimens for testing would be much further from a real-world test. Its that simple.

I wasn't going to bring this up, but at this point I think it needs to be said. Some of you have fallen completely in love with Mr. Engel and his whitepaper. And I am okay with that because I think he really believes in his product and his test procedures. He is a great man that has done great things for our industry. Now some of you absolutely despise the current AFCI manufacturers for their profit motive and desire to expand their markets. You say they can't possibly be doing anything for the good of society because the almighty dollar is in-charge. What do you think the outcome of Mr. Engel's proposals to the 2014 NEC would have meant to him personally? I wonder what the value of his AFCI patents would have been had combination AFCIs been reversed back to the branch/feeder type AFCI? Maybe this is a coincidence, I will let you deicide. You either don't want to see that angle or you are just lying to yourself.

Codes and standards development is sausage making. It gets a bit messy at times and your hands might get a little dirty. Everybody thinks their sausage is the best sausage. It tastes better, uses better ingredients, is better for you. All the sausage goes to the judges and some win, some lose. Some of the losers refuse to accept the loss and resort to making claims that the contest was rigged, the judges were paid off, and the winning sausage has no merits. Don't do that...

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday afternoon.

 

[bphgravity]

We are not just talking about CMP-2 here. CMP-1, CMP-3, CMP-4 and the CC have all accepted AFCI proposals. That is in awful lot of people and organizations that you seem to believe can't think for themselves and can be so easily fooled. Be careful, some of these organizations probably represent you...

Just in-case one of you wasn't keeping track, the following organizations have publically endorsed, supported, and have advocated for AFCIs: NEMA, NFPA, CPSC, USFA, OSHA, ICC, IAEI, NECA, IEC, IBEW, IEEE, ESFi, UL, ETL, and CSA. This is not an all-inclusive list. You are calling into questions the credibility of our finest associations and the people that represent them. And with little to no evidence whatsoever...

Conspiracy theories belong in the books and movies. Let's leave them out of our industry...

 

[mivey]

What do you think the outcome of Mr. Engel's proposals to the 2014 NEC would have meant to him personally? I wonder what the value of his AFCI patents would have been had combination AFCIs been reversed back to the branch/feeder type AFCI? Maybe this is a coincidence, I will let you decide. You either don't want to see that angle or you are just lying to yourself.

So it was Dr. Engel who had the agenda? How weak. The fact remains that they put requirements for devices in the code that were not available. What does that have to do with Dr. Engel?

Some of the losers refuse to accept the loss and resort to making claims that the contest was rigged, the judges were paid off, and the winning sausage has no merits. Don't do that...

It is the response to the mistakes made that is telling.