AFCI - GFCI ins 2014 NEC

wirebender

Senior Member
210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Arcfault
circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required
in 210.12(A) (B), and (C). The arc-fault circuit interrupter
shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed
in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining
rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms,
sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas,
or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of
the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6):

I guess that ends the debate about switches that are in areas requiring AFCI but controlling lights in areas that aren't?
So, pretty much all lighting will be AFCI protected?
except the bathroom, of course.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The substantiation for the GFCI requirement for dishwashers is based on end of life issues with certain appliances. As motor driven appliances age, the motor windings degrade and the insulation can break down and create leakage current in excess of what is considered a safe limit. The appliance manufactures were the people that purposed this code change.

Here is the ROP



As you can see this proposal failed at the proposal stage.

Here is the ROC



This Comment passed on a 9 to 4 vote. Here is some of the dissenting comments



Chris
I have to say I fully agree with all the dissenting comments. I maybe would favor GFCI for cord and plug connected dishwasher or disposer, but otherwise a hard wired appliance is not likely to have its frame energized. We already have other instances where GFCI may be required for cord and plug connected equipment but is not for same/similar equipment that is hard wired. But even the risk of losing the EGC on a cord connected DW or disp. is probably not all that much. It is not like people are frequently interchanging these particular appliances and the grounding pin of the attachment plug will be subjected to coming loose like it maybe does on other appliances that get plugged in/unplugged quite frequently.

And I am a firm believer in GFCI and the protection it provides, but still think it is not all that necessary here.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I think GFCI protection should be required for all 15 and 20 amps circuits in dwellings and eliminate AFCI's. GFCI's would probably prevent as many fires as AFCI's do and they would also prevent many electrocutions. I would bet that GFCI's would prevent more deaths than AFCI's do. We would also have less incompatibility issues with appliances and AFCI's. GFCI's work well unless there is a problem with the appliance being connected to them.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think GFCI protection should be required for all 15 and 20 amps circuits in dwellings and eliminate AFCI's. GFCI's would probably prevent as many fires as AFCI's do and they would also prevent many electrocutions. I would bet that GFCI's would prevent more deaths than AFCI's do. We would also have less incompatibility issues with appliances and AFCI's. GFCI's work well unless there is a problem with the appliance being connected to them.

Maybe. A GFCI should not do anything as a response to arcing from protected line to protected line or protected neutral.

AFCI, though there are doubts, does claim to provide protection from this.

Based on intention of the two products alone, they are not the same nor are they interchangeable.

Add: I agree the GFCI feature in many AFCI's is probably the most common trip mode, but this is not class A GFCI protection either.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
Providing GFCI and AFCI protection is going to be interesting for loads such as dishwashers, disposals and even microwaves. Most of my customers are not going to accept visible blank face GFCI's. I think the breakers manufactures need to start offering the option of breakers that offer both AFCI and GFCI protection similar to what Cutler-Hammer offered when the first generation of AFCI's came out.
Most AFCIs have 30ma GFCI protection built in. I think in our near future we will see the NEC requiring GFCI and AFCI protection on everything.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
The substantiation for the GFCI requirement for dishwashers is based on end of life issues with certain appliances. As motor driven appliances age, the motor windings degrade and the insulation can break down and create leakage current in excess of what is considered a safe limit. The appliance manufactures were the people that purposed this code change.

Chris

Dishwashers rarely fail from motor insulation degradation but often the shaft pump seal will start to leak dripping water into the motor and connections.

A second major issue are terminals on electronic control boards becoming loose and overheating. Today's appliances are exceptionally far away from what you found 40 years ago. Today you will see many ugly failure modes take place inconceivable just few years ago.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
I think GFCI protection should be required for all 15 and 20 amps circuits in dwellings and eliminate AFCI's. GFCI's would probably prevent as many fires as AFCI's do and they would also prevent many electrocutions. I would bet that GFCI's would prevent more deaths than AFCI's do. We would also have less incompatibility issues with appliances and AFCI's. GFCI's work well unless there is a problem with the appliance being connected to them.

I agree! 30ma protection for standard circuits, 5ma for kitchens, baths and the like, 50 or 100ma for large appliances. Fires from nearly every failure mode besides a glowing connection will be eliminated. In the European Union 30ma GFCI protection has been required on 95% of all residential circuits for about 20 years now, and so far with great luck. The AFCI part is nothing more but a fraud to get somebody rich. No evidence even exists they work, but take any GFCI circuit and the protection can be proven right there.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Dishwashers rarely fail from motor insulation degradation but often the shaft pump seal will start to leak dripping water into the motor and connections.

A second major issue are terminals on electronic control boards becoming loose and overheating. Today's appliances are exceptionally far away from what you found 40 years ago. Today you will see many ugly failure modes take place inconceivable just few years ago.
Neither of those instances poses much risk of shock if the EGC is in good condition, which is why I still feel GFCI is maybe an ok idea if cord and plug connected but not necessary if hard wired.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
Neither of those instances poses much risk of shock if the EGC is in good condition, which is why I still feel GFCI is maybe an ok idea if cord and plug connected but not necessary if hard wired.
True, however it may reduce the risk of fire or major failure in that a water leak will be caught early before it can corrode electrical connections or the motor. Im not defending the GFCI addition but the code making panel may have seen it that way. Of note I think this kind of goes along with this: http://www.davesrepair.com/DIYhelp/DIYDWsandGFIs.htm
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
True, however it may reduce the risk of fire or major failure in that a water leak will be caught early before it can corrode electrical connections or the motor. Im not defending the GFCI addition but the code making panel may have seen it that way. Of note I think this kind of goes along with this: http://www.davesrepair.com/DIYhelp/DIYDWsandGFIs.htm
The guy that wrote that article in your link IMO is an idiot, and is lucky to still be alive.

I still fail to see how GFCI is going to provide significant protection from a leaking seal, unless the water runs right into some uninsulated component in a steady enough stream to provide continuity to a grounded surface. Motor windings have insulation on them and will not short out with a little water on them. By the time insulation breaks down enough to trip GFCI, some of the damage is already done.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
The guy that wrote that article in your link IMO is an idiot, and is lucky to still be alive.

I still fail to see how GFCI is going to provide significant protection from a leaking seal, unless the water runs right into some uninsulated component in a steady enough stream to provide continuity to a grounded surface. Motor windings have insulation on them and will not short out with a little water on them. By the time insulation breaks down enough to trip GFCI, some of the damage is already done.
A GFCI will provide early leak protection especially in vertical mount motors in that yes the windings are insulated, however they either terminate to a terminal block where a small part of the studs are exposed or crimps with a jacket that is not always perfect. More often than not a small leak will cause water to build up around the crimps or terminal block taking a small amount of current to the frame of the motor. I know this first hand, I started out repairing appliances. And I know the GFCI could not be reset until the motor was completely dry. Appliance motors are not the high grade motors you find in other applications. Of course it doesn't work on all motors but most older ones it did very well.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
Just to give you an idea, this is the on board terminal block version. (1 of 2 kinds) The metal spades are small and tight with a grounded metal plate behind them. It does take much water to jump them to the metal behind it.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
What about other appliances in kitchen(fridge etc.) . Do they required to be gfci protected.
No appliance in the kitchen for a residence needs gfci. If the outlet for the appliance is serving the counter then it needs gfci. Some of this will change in the 2014 NEC
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
My read is everything in the residence will be AFCI protected with the exception of the bathroom & garage. The entire kitchen which includes aplliances will have GFI protection. Any recepticle within 6' of a cord path will have GFI protection, Garages & bathrooms remain the same GFI protection. GFCI & AFCI will be readily accessible. So, there will be many circuits having GFI & AFCI protection. The AFCI protection section is a mangled mess of wording which will allow some circuits to be protected by Branch circuit only not requiring the combination protection. Someone has gone to great lenghts to make it confusing and more expensive to the consumer. Must be those parents that blame the world when their child sticks a fork in the recept while they watch TV. I'm really not angry just disappointed I didn't have a nanny state of affairs when I was growing up.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
The statement is a little over the top but how else do you measure the distance from a sink to the garbage disposal? If in fact it is a 6' sphere that can penetrate countertops & doors, would it also penetrate walls? What happens to the wall recept on the backside of the sink in another room within the 6'sphere? Really doesn't make sense to gfci it. The 6' cord is a personal interpretation but has common sense values IMO. General recepts are spaced so that a 6' cord on an appliance can utilize most of the wall space, if the concern is about faulty equipment then the 6' cord interpretation has merit. I know most will measure horizontal along wall line which in most cases will prove correct. Food for thought; small bathroom with the sink next to the operable door. The bedroom connected to this bathroom has 2 recepts that are in fact within 6' as you follow the wall line into the bedroom. Are they to be GFI protected? Call it a kitchen sink with an open doorway to the familyroom with the same 2 recept placing.
 
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