AFCI - GFCI ins 2014 NEC

[mbrooke]

My read is everything in the residence will be AFCI protected with the exception of the bathroom & garage. The entire kitchen which includes aplliances will have GFI protection. Any recepticle within 6' of a cord path will have GFI protection, Garages & bathrooms remain the same GFI protection. GFCI & AFCI will be readily accessible. So, there will be many circuits having GFI & AFCI protection. The AFCI protection section is a mangled mess of wording which will allow some circuits to be protected by Branch circuit only not requiring the combination protection. Someone has gone to great lenghts to make it confusing and more expensive to the consumer. Must be those parents that blame the world when their child sticks a fork in the recept while they watch TV. I'm really not angry just disappointed I didn't have a nanny state of affairs when I was growing up.

I feel the same way. The whole thing is a mess. I dont even think it has to do with past accidents like you describe but marketing. The residential market was never a big money maker for breaker and device manufacturers. Now it has more to profit from.

 

[JDBrown]

The statement is a little over the top but how else do you measure the distance from a sink to the garbage disposal? If in fact it is a 6' sphere that can penetrate countertops & doors, would it also penetrate walls? What happens to the wall recept on the backside of the sink in another room within the 6'sphere? Really doesn't make sense to gfci it. The 6' cord is a personal interpretation but has common sense values IMO. General recepts are spaced so that a 6' cord on an appliance can utilize most of the wall space, if the concern is about faulty equipment then the 6' cord interpretation has merit. I know most will measure horizontal along wall line which in most cases will prove correct. Food for thought; small bathroom with the sink next to the operable door. The bedroom connected to this bathroom has 2 recepts that are in fact within 6' as you follow the wall line into the bedroom. Are they to be GFI protected? Call it a kitchen sink with an open doorway to the familyroom with the same 2 recept placing.

Thanks for the clarification; I just couldn't for the life of me figure out what you meant by "cord path". Now that I understand what you were saying, it makes sense. As for your hypotheticals, I would say the bedroom (or living room) receptacles need GFCI protection.

I'm still unsure that the 6' cord method applies completely when it comes to the distance from a sink, though. For example, does a receptacle that's 10' high on the wall directly above the sink need GFCI protection or not? How about one that's 7' high above a floor sink?

 

[kwired]

The statement is a little over the top but how else do you measure the distance from a sink to the garbage disposal? If in fact it is a 6' sphere that can penetrate countertops & doors, would it also penetrate walls? What happens to the wall recept on the backside of the sink in another room within the 6'sphere? Really doesn't make sense to gfci it. The 6' cord is a personal interpretation but has common sense values IMO. General recepts are spaced so that a 6' cord on an appliance can utilize most of the wall space, if the concern is about faulty equipment then the 6' cord interpretation has merit. I know most will measure horizontal along wall line which in most cases will prove correct. Food for thought; small bathroom with the sink next to the operable door. The bedroom connected to this bathroom has 2 recepts that are in fact within 6' as you follow the wall line into the bedroom. Are they to be GFI protected? Call it a kitchen sink with an open doorway to the familyroom with the same 2 recept placing.

May be a analogy that fits most things, but not all. Take the dishwasher GFCI requirement in upcoming 2014. My understanding is it could be well over six feet from the sink and would still require GFCI protection.

I don't know what other changes may have been made but if only change in kitchens is the addition of disposers and dishwashers, the remaining GFCI rules have little to do with proximity to the sink and everything to do with receptacles serving counter top spaces.

 

[FREEBALL]

Does anybody know what the difference is between a receptacle mounted in a bathroom vs a bedroom, has to do with this code. Say for instance you have a receptacle mounted in a bedroom wall that adjoins a bathroom wall at the sink, why is one requird and not the other. Is it possibly due to the probability that an extension cord will not be run from the device in the bathroom. just curious

 

[mwm1752]

I'm still unsure that the 6' cord method applies completely when it comes to the distance from a sink, though. For example, does a receptacle that's 10' high on the wall directly above the sink need GFCI protection or not? How about one that's 7' high above a floor sink?[/QUOTE]

The reason I made it a sphere analogy was to have questions like yours addressed. Clearly the garbage disposal, wall recepts, sub zero frig recept location(generally abpout 7' above the floor) that are within 6' of a sink are not on the same plane. Maybe the logic is based upon touch reach of an appliance to the sink. When I was growing up 1960-1970's we had metal cabinets, if you grabbed the refrigerator handle to open it and reached over to the cabinet, say for a glass to put milk in, we would get shocked. My eldest sister married an electrician who immediatley pulled out the non grounded cord cap and reinserted it reversing the polarity. Problem solved. We now have polarized cord caps & better appliances to avoid the downfalls of the earlier years.

 

[kwired]

Does anybody know what the difference is between a receptacle mounted in a bathroom vs a bedroom, has to do with this code. Say for instance you have a receptacle mounted in a bedroom wall that adjoins a bathroom wall at the sink, why is one requird and not the other. Is it possibly due to the probability that an extension cord will not be run from the device in the bathroom. just curious

Can you clarify a little more? A bedroom and a bathroom may not necessarily be separate "rooms" but are separate "areas". look at the definition of "bathroom in art 100:

Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a urinal, a tub, a shower, a bidet, or similar plumbing fixtures.

Doesn't require it to have walls or any specific dividing method to separate it from "non-bathroom" areas. So the boundaries of this "bathroom" are more less subject to interpretation. Most of the time there are doors, walls, that most people accept as the boundary.

I'm still unsure that the 6' cord method applies completely when it comes to the distance from a sink, though. For example, does a receptacle that's 10' high on the wall directly above the sink need GFCI protection or not? How about one that's 7' high above a floor sink?

The reason I made it a sphere analogy was to have questions like yours addressed. Clearly the garbage disposal, wall recepts, sub zero frig recept location(generally abpout 7' above the floor) that are within 6' of a sink are not on the same plane. Maybe the logic is based upon touch reach of an appliance to the sink. When I was growing up 1960-1970's we had metal cabinets, if you grabbed the refrigerator handle to open it and reached over to the cabinet, say for a glass to put milk in, we would get shocked. My eldest sister married an electrician who immediatley pulled out the non grounded cord cap and reinserted it reversing the polarity. Problem solved. We now have polarized cord caps & better appliances to avoid the downfalls of the earlier years.[/QUOTE]But there is no "six foot rule" for kitchens like there once was. GFCI protection required by 210.8 for dwelling unit kitchens only mentions receptacles serving countertop surfaces. You can have a receptacle 1 foot from the kitchen sink and it is code compliant to not have GFCI protection if it is not serving a countertop space. Sinks at wet bars, laundry, other areas this would not be true, the language covering those areas is worded differently though. Bathrooms - the entire room requires GFCI no matter how close to the sink the receptacle may be.

 

[templdl]

I feel the same way. The whole thing is a mess. I dont even think it has to do with past accidents like you describe but marketing. The residential market was never a big money maker for breaker and device manufacturers. Now it has more to profit from.

You have no idea what the profit is in those little old residential breakers. I was astounded at what the actual cost is to make one. And to think of the hundreds of thousands that are made.
Also, every time something new is developed there is much resistance to its introduction to the market place. If the manufacturers didn't develop new products we would still be as we were 50 years ago.

 

[kwired]

You have no idea what the profit is in those little old residential breakers. I was astounded at what the actual cost is to make one. And to think of the hundreds of thousands that are made.
Also, every time something new is developed there is much resistance to its introduction to the market place. If the manufacturers didn't develop new products we would still be as we were 50 years ago.

I had been to Square D's QO breaker manufacturing plant in late 1980's. Back then they were assembled on machines that spit out maybe 100 breakers a minute in the single pole units anyway.

The GFCI breakers though were at least partially assembled by hand, meaning there was a lot more labor cost in making those.

 

[mwm1752]

But there is no "six foot rule" for kitchens like there once was. GFCI protection required by 210.8 for dwelling unit kitchens only mentions receptacles serving countertop surfaces. You can have a receptacle 1 foot from the kitchen sink and it is code compliant to not have GFCI protection if it is not serving a countertop space. Sinks at wet bars, laundry, other areas this would not be true, the language covering those areas is worded differently though. Bathrooms - the entire room requires GFCI no matter how close to the sink the receptacle may be.[/QUOTE]

we are discussing NEC 2014 changes -- the analysis for change disagrees with you

 

[templdl]

I had been to Square D's QO breaker manufacturing plant in late 1980's. Back then they were assembled on machines that spit out maybe 100 breakers a minute in the single pole units anyway.

The GFCI breakers though were at least partially assembled by hand, meaning there was a lot more labor cost in making those.

There is no doubt that AFCI/GFCI breakers are more expensive but there in no doubt that the cost of making the is a lot less than you and I can ever imagine.
Functional pricing as well as what the market will bare is what pricing is based upon.

 

[kwired]

But there is no "six foot rule" for kitchens like there once was. GFCI protection required by 210.8 for dwelling unit kitchens only mentions receptacles serving countertop surfaces. You can have a receptacle 1 foot from the kitchen sink and it is code compliant to not have GFCI protection if it is not serving a countertop space. Sinks at wet bars, laundry, other areas this would not be true, the language covering those areas is worded differently though. Bathrooms - the entire room requires GFCI no matter how close to the sink the receptacle may be.

we are discussing NEC 2014 changes -- the analysis for change disagrees with you[/QUOTE]

Maybe I need to look at the changes, I thought the only real change to GFCI protection in the dwelling unit kitchen was the addition of dishwashers and disposers, and those will require GFCI even if not cord and plug connected from my understanding.

AFAIK, everything else remained the same (for GFCI protection). If that is the case only thing requiring GFCI protection now is receptacles serving countertop spaces whether there is a sink in the vicinity or not.
And a receptacle within six feet of a kitchen sink doesn't require GFCI if it doesn't serve a countertop.

Most of what I know about 2014 changes is what I have read in posts on this site, I have not read any published material by NFPA or third parties at this point.

 

[JDBrown]

Does anybody know what the difference is between a receptacle mounted in a bathroom vs a bedroom, has to do with this code. Say for instance you have a receptacle mounted in a bedroom wall that adjoins a bathroom wall at the sink, why is one requird and not the other. Is it possibly due to the probability that an extension cord will not be run from the device in the bathroom. just curious

Well, in 2011 they changed the wording of 210.8(A)(7):

Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks ? where the receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink

Sinks ? located in areas other than kitchens where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink

So now the 6 ft. rule applies to all sinks except kitchen sinks (unless it's changing again in 2014 -- I don't have a copy of that code yet). This seems a little odd to me, since it seems like they're well on their way to requiring all kitchen receptacles to be GFCI protected the same as in commercial kitchens.

 

[kwired]

Well, in 2011 they changed the wording of 210.8(A)(7):


So now the 6 ft. rule applies to all sinks except kitchen sinks (unless it's changing again in 2014 -- I don't have a copy of that code yet). This seems a little odd to me, since it seems like they're well on their way to requiring all kitchen receptacles to be GFCI protected the same as in commercial kitchens.

I can see them changing it so that all kitchen receptacles require GFCI. I still don't get why a hardwired dishwasher or disposer would still require GFCI, it has been mentioned that those two items will require GFCI even if hard wired.

 

[GoldDigger]

I can see them changing it so that all kitchen receptacles require GFCI. I still don't get why a hardwired dishwasher or disposer would still require GFCI, it has been mentioned that those two items will require GFCI even if hard wired.

My guess is that the possibility of energizing supply or drain plumbing may factor into it.

 

[kwired]

My guess is that the possibility of energizing supply or drain plumbing may factor into it.

Not good enough for me. A hard wired appliance has a better chance of good integrity of the EGC than a cord and plug connected appliance - specifically those that use 5-15 or 5-20 cord caps. Hard wiring has always been an exception to needing GFCI in many cases. Construction sites require GFCI, IMO mostly because of compromised EGC's in cords being something that commonly happens. I do believe there is an exception to GFCI at those sites if you utilize an "assured equipment grounding protection" program (or something like that), but GFCI is much easier to comply with so it is what is commonly done.

I just don't see there being much risk of a dishwasher or a disposer electrocuting someone if there is a pretty reliable connection to the equipment grounding conductor. People have brought up seals leaking on motor - so what, it may give you earlier indication of a problem but still IMO is not much of a shock hazard to the user, which it what the NEC concern should be. Beyond that it is a design issue which NEC has been encroaching for some time now in many different sections.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I can see them changing it so that all kitchen receptacles require GFCI. I still don't get why a hardwired dishwasher or disposer would still require GFCI, it has been mentioned that those two items will require GFCI even if hard wired.

There is a new section, 210.8(D), that requires GFCI protection for the dishwasher, even if it is hard wired. Not sure about the disposer.

 

[kwired]

There is a new section, 210.8(D), that requires GFCI protection for the dishwasher, even if it is hard wired. Not sure about the disposer.

I think it has been mentioned on this forum that the same rules apply to the disposer. Not sure if both are covered in same section but apparently both will have same basic requirements. I have not heard of any other changes in GFCI protection in the dwelling unit kitchen.

I would also guess this requirement is more specific to the dishwasher and disposer than it is specific to "kitchens" meaning GFCI is likely required even if not installed in a "kitchen", which does happen occasionally.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I think this whole thing is Marketing driven under the rouse of safety!:?