AFCI's have they proven themselves?

[ptonsparky]

Being one of the retired guys I can certainly say none have caused an issue lately. Other than the total failure of three of my own 14 year old ones. Trip coils burnt out. My guys were able to find the issues of those that did give them problems they installed on existing wiring. None of which were likely to cause any fires.

Of the 14 years or so, we
had one call back to investigate, that resulted in an extension cord under a rocking chair being discarded.

 

[tortuga]

The interesting thing is AFCI's have not spread outside the US and possibly Canada.
And i'd think a 230V 50hz arc would be more of an issue than a 120V 60hz one?
If AFCI did have a huge advantage you'd think the UK / EU / JP / Australia / NZ / South Korea / Philippines would have adopted them.
Whats happened in the meantime is the rest of the world moved to having some form of ground fault sensing on all residential circuits.

 

[NoahsArc]

There is a different skill set that house ropers have than mc slingers' and big industrial guys

Going from commercial/highrise/etc to SFH residential was like being a 1st year all over again. It takes a good deal of time to learn the ropes of them ropes.

 

[W@ttson]

In my experience it's still mostly from motor appliances. But this just further contributes to the crying wolf problem.

Speaking as one who removed drywall one time, because there was clear evidence I'd hit something in the wall.

I have found they trip on motor loads a lot. This is frustrating during renovations and you have a table saw plugged into the outlet and you have to reset the breaker ever other board rip.

Also, some devices are just "noisy". I have spent A LOT of time with siemens technical support and even have several documentations from them on troubleshooting as well as the standards they give out to manufacturers on how to build their equipment to not trip AFCIs. Sometimes their solution is to install a plug in surge suppression device and then plug the device in. The SPD smooths out the load profile from the device. They first recommend a lower joule rated model, if that doesn't work, they recommend a more expensive one. I have done this on a Wolf toaster oven. It would trip AFCI ALL THE TIME. Installed the SPD and plugged in the Wolf Toaster oven and never tripped again. When you talk to tech support they first require you to take a survey of all of the appliances plugged in.

I keep a stock of those SPDs on hand at all times. Its a travesty to the electrical industry. Sometimes you can locate the device, sometimes you can't. If normal devices are causing intermittent trips how can that product be allowed on the market.

 

[jaggedben]

I may try that on my microwave. Or I might just replace the breaker.

 

[W@ttson]

I may try that on my microwave. Or I might just replace the breaker.

This is the device recommended by Siemens:

https://a.co/d/7I9f1FW

 

[hbiss]

Are those DF breakers? I'm surprised that doesn't trip the GFCI function.

-Hal

 

[jmellc]

Just because you didn't have any fire doesn't mean anything other than you had quality installation without anything that compromised the system.

Seen many near misses where a fire didn't start onto structure in total, but did burn wall and framing, and that eventually self extinguished due to arcing event moved to a point that didn't any longer support the burning conductor, most times a result of arcing wire entry into a metal grounded box that tripped from short circuit. Almost always found faulty installation point or a device that would no longer support usage, ie. worn receptacle. Just what I've witnessed.
Not a scientific analysis method but I haven't seen any of these types of damage on circuits protected by an AFCI.

I have replaced many devices burned up by backstabbing and the AFCI never tripped. Worthless junk forced on us by overzealous authorities.

 

[jmellc]

I think money would be better spent on doing away with Romex in favor of MC and in the interim requiring insulated staples. Poor quality labor is only going to make installation problems worse.

-Hal

MC will peel if it catches on a nail or anything else. Simpull Romex is better than many of the older versions IMHO.

 

[ramsy]

The global market size for the AFCI is about $5B - are we concluding honestly that this is a five billion dollar larceny - or is the situation more complicated than this?

The National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) took a page from Microsoft Windows in 1999, by mandating residential developers beta test software with AFCI devices. Perhaps grand larceny, perpetuated by equipment & insurance industries that dominate NFPA panel membership.

The affected contractors failed to prosecute after 12-yrs of losses from AFCI troubles, or perhaps from their own failure to hire requisite skills. The problem with court is cross examination. If general contractors were exposed for using RMO's as their whipping boy, to run unskilled laborer shops, the entire licensed industry could appear lawless, much less competent, for using unqualified persons to install building wiring.

Emboldened without challenge from clean hands, the 2011 NFPA-70 code cycle perpetuated the AFCI mandate on existing outlet replacements, and expanded it to dormitory units, guest rooms/suites of hotels/motels, and in 2023 to patient sleeping rooms of nursing homes, and limited-care facilities.

Without the ability to settle damages in court, the construction industry developers took a page from politics, mobilized their local chambers of commerce, and by 2020 amended out AFCI & GFCI mandates in nearly half the country.

In states where AFCI & GFCI are amended out, the missing safety devices can't be used to non-renew & cancel property insurance for increased hazard, although unskilled labor typically provides insurance investigators plenty of other defects to choose from.

 

[ActionDave]

I dont think you'll find any electricians wearing I ♥ AFCI's T shirts.
I'd also say this forum is has a very very high percentage of retired electricians (as in no longer practicing) and non-residential electricians whom tend to encounter more problems with AFCI's.

I have found AFCI's dont really cause callbacks for skilled residential installers at least the ones that I know and see around.
There is a different skill set that house ropers have than mc slingers' and big industrial guys, and the day in day out house ropers are not having the majority of AFCI issues.
I am not defending AFCI's but just saying what I see.
Case in point I fixed an AFCI issue for a local retired electrician whom was doing his own kitchen remodel and got stuck.
It was fun to meet him, he told me all about working big crazy union jobs and traveling all over, he actually wanted to set up some contactors so he would not even need to fix the issue with his 4-way switch.
In the end he just had a neutral crossed in a switch box with a old knob and tube neutral was a 1 hour fix, 10 min to fix 50min to chit chat he gave me a great old conduit bender.

I'm old enough to call myself old but fifteen years away from retirement and I do commercial work, but have past experience in home wiring. None of that matters. AFCIs do have problems, do cause nuisance trips, and don't have any ability to do anything to stop electrical fires in houses, aside from the ground fault protection ferreting some problems with miswired circuits and ground faults on damaged circuits.

Case and point, a mere two years ago my in-laws were doing a kitchen update and bought a new fridge. I ran a dedicated circuit from the panel to fridge, brother-in-law goes out to home desperate and comes back with a dual function breaker because he thinks it's going to be better and safer. Fridge randomly trips breaker for a week. Rip out the dual function breaker, install GFCI breaker and no more trips.

AFCIs don't work well with electronic loads. The manufactures have reduced the number of nuisance trips but they haven't gotten rid of them, and since AFCI tech is a black box how do we know if the tweaks are not removing whatever protection the breaker might have given during an actual arc event.

 

[LarryFine]

The manufactures have reduced the number of nuisance trips but they haven't gotten rid of them, and since AFCI tech is a black box how do we know if the tweaks are not removing whatever protection the breaker might have given during an actual arc event.

"We guarantee our circuit breakers will never exhibit nuisance tripping!"

 

[ActionDave]

There you go. The truth revealed.

 

[ramsy]

AFCI tech is a black box how do we know if the tweaks are not removing whatever protection the breaker might have given during an actual arc event.

While its true unreliable AFCI tech exploited everybody, this has resulted in some comparative advantage by specialization.

EC's who now specialize in AFCI's are available. Bids can be solicited with request for proof of passing residential electrical inspections.

Residential EC's with a history of permits and AFCI's under their belt, are more likely to select and warranty AFCI equipment, and pass inspections without letting their helpers bury fire hazards behind walls.

 

[drcampbell]

It seems clear from this extensive thread that a vast majority of electricians are not in favor ...

That, or vast majority of electricians who are willing to engage in an Internet flame war.

 

[hbiss]

While its true unreliable AFCI tech exploited everybody, this has resulted in some comparative advantage by specialization.

EC's who now specialize in AFCI's are available. Bids can be solicited with request for proof of passing residential electrical inspections.

Residential EC's with a history of permits and AFCI's under their belt, are more likely to select and warranty AFCI equipment, and pass inspections without letting their helpers bury fire hazards behind walls.

What are you talking about. ECs that let their helpers bury fire hazards behind walls?? ECs who specialize in AFCIs? Sound like crooks to me. Isn't every EC required to provide AFCIs? Oh, I see. Those "specialists" charge the customer a "little extra" and convince them how AFCIs will save their lives and that of their children and dog.

Leave it to somebody to take an already shady product and exploit it for their own profit. Same guys who promote that little box that plugs into a receptacle and will cut your electric bill in half.

-Hal

 

[drcampbell]

Don't forget the nuclear power plants.
Yes, the ones that are running for no purpose other than operating the tiny computer and relay in each of millions of AFCI devices 24/7/365.
Vampire power.

Um, maybe Do the Math? What are we talking about? One watt per panel?

There are a lot of opportunities for negawatts, but this doesn't seem like a significant one. Maybe start with escalators that run 24/7, then follow up with escalators that run when nobody's using them

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Um, maybe Do the Math? What are we talking about? One watt per panel?

There are a lot of opportunities for negawatts, but this doesn't seem like a significant one. Maybe start with escalators that run 24/7, then follow up with escalators that run when nobody's using them

Some sources suggest 10% or more of the dwelling kWH usage is vampire or phantom loads, of course the AFCI and GFCI loads are a very very small part of that.

 

[ramsy]

What are you talking about.

I surrender the floor to the armchair general from Westchester, New York:

Lets hear it hbiss:

 

[hbiss]

I surrender the floor to the armchair general from Westchester, New York:

Lets hear it hbiss:

Around here, people like that don't seem to last very long.

-Hal