amps on h2o line

[megawatt]

http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/Publications/Industry/Electrical/electrical_hazards_for_plumbers.htm

The most upsetting thing about these events is the victims never realize the potential for injury or death while doing a seemingly simple, safe task.
We all agree with the requirement of a transfer switch for protection from current imposed from a different source... I personally don't see the difference here.
Just as the OP described....most of us have seen this situation before. If no power is connected to the service entrance there should not be a "spark" when disconnecting the waterpipe ground. This is a sure sign the issue We are discussing exists !
It probably should not be reconnected without some type of documentation from the POCO or AHJ to cover the EC ?

 

[mdshunk]

If no power is connected to the service entrance there should not be a "spark" when disconnecting the waterpipe ground.

Are you trying to imply that no potential difference will ever exist between all the electrodes in a system before they're terminated? He was connecting the water line when he got the little spark. Perhaps the rod and/or footer electrodes were already connected?

 

[iwire]

If no power is connected to the service entrance there should not be a "spark" when disconnecting the water pipe ground.

As long as there is a common metal underground metal water piping system and the utilities neutral is connected to the home there will likely be current flowing on the GEC the instant it touches the water pipe.

This will happen with the power on or off in that particular home.

 

[brian john]

If it weren't for electricity we'd all be watching television by candlelight.

Changing the topic a bit, I went to make toast and waited and waited no toast, went to check what was causing the delay in my toast......Wife unplugged toaster. That modern electricity has it's draw backs.

 

[mdshunk]

Changing the topic a bit, I went to make toast and waited and waited no toast, went to check what was causing the delay in my toast......Wife unplugged toaster. That modern electricity has it's draw backs.

The Amish seem generally happy and healthy.

 

[iwire]

The Amish seem generally happy and healthy.

They just traded using electricity for hydraulics and pnematics.....it's not like they all use hand saws. :wink:

 

[mdshunk]

They just traded using electricity for hydraulics and pnematics.....it's not like they all use hand saws. :wink:

They have these cool Skil saws that use chainsaw motors. Kerosene fired refrigerators. Pneumatic paddle fans. Heck, even the buggies have battery operated headlights and turn signals. They charge the batteries by solar or off a rectifier from a gasoline generator.

 

[megawatt]

I'm not going to pretend to be smart enough to explain difference in potential issues, or why some current may be found on a EGC.
I usually depend on plain old common sence & My experience in these matters. Before becoming an EC, I worked for a POCO as a Lead Lineman for 10 yrs. Many times I saw a lost neutral situation while doing unrelated work, and no Customers were having any trouble with their power at all.
Now, the first Homeowner, Handyman, Plumber etc that opens a cold water pipe connection nearby, will prove Me right !
The whole purpose of the NEC is protection of People & Property.
My contention will always be that it would be much safer if different Homes would not be interconnected through the water pipes. Then the house that has a lost / bad neutral situation will know it, and the chances of some unsuspecting Person getting hurt will be very slim.

 

[brian john]

Then the house that has a lost / bad neutral situation will know it, and the chances of some unsuspecting Person getting hurt will be very slim.

Taking it here if you lose the neutreal to one house with plastic service, then an appliance blows up catches fire, whole family dies.

 

[iwire]

My contention will always be that it would be much safer if different Homes would not be interconnected through the water pipes.

It's a tough call, until such time as the utility supplies a separate neutral and EGC there will always be trade offs.

 

[George Stolz]

I believe Ryan Jackson is planning on submitting a proposal to allow the main bonding jumper to exist on the utility side, and allow an EGC to be provided with the service conductors to a structure. If such a proposal were to succeed, it would eliminate the danger of interconnected water pipes as a side effect, I believe.

Edit: And Bob apparently just said that, in not so many words...

 

[megawatt]

Taking it here if you lose the neutreal to one house with plastic service, then an appliance blows up catches fire, whole family dies.

That is a bit dramatic brian! For that scenario to come close to happening, You have to assume that said appliance would not cause some type of overcurrent protection to clear the fault. ...but Your reply reinforces My contention all along that the problem should be contained to that individual Home, not transfered to the neighbor for them to find later.
Flip it around, use My scenario where someone is injured, or killed due to a problem with their neighbor's open neutral at their service entrance.
Now who's to blame ? Just an accident ? Anybody liable here ?
Another example that I found on a routine call. Cust had an old 240 volt plug that used to feed a window AC. Plug was not energized, and the Lady wanted to know if She could get a "regular" plug there ?
I opened the panel looking for an unconnected cable, and discovered that the Lady's late Husband had a friend that "worked up at the Waffle House" to put in a new breaker box !
Trouble with replacing these is most often the wires don't always reach where We need them to.
This knucklehead got a big split bolt, & with the short neutrals twisted together connected it to the cold water pipe ground. Worked great !
This lady had been a good Customer, and believed My explanation of the danger. I made a safe, temp repair, and did a complete upgrade as soon as possible.
We will never be able to protect people from self inflicted stupidity.... I just believe it shouldn't pose any form of danger to another person.
Does anyone agree with Me, or is this soapbox mine alone ?

 

[iwire]

Does anyone agree with Me, or is this soapbox mine alone ?

I think you have some good points but I also think you fail to see the other side of the problem.

An open neutral to a house without the water pipe backing it up is dangerous to anyone outside the home that touches, an outdoor faucet, any electrical enclosures including the meter enclosure etc.

All these bonded parts will now be at a much higher potential than the earth.

That said with non-metallic water mains becoming the norm the entire issue will come a thing of the past.

 

[brian john]

Actually it is not dramatic. I have been involved in several investigations where a loose neutral resulted in damaged equipment and one fire. I have only heard about water utility personnel being hurt. I would think the possibility of a fire is higher.

I am all for plastic and or installing die-electric couplings, just trying to show you there are other issues involved.

 

[greenjeans]

i like the debate, but agree plastic piping into the home and a GEC with the service(line side) and a ufer ground is ideal for new homes. older homes no ufer- ground rods. which by the way read 0 amps
i wonder if i stand at the egc connection and tapped it off and on the pipe ( not that i would) for an hour or two, if one of the homeowners would notice lights blinking :roll: lol

 

[megawatt]

I think you have some good points but I also think you fail to see the other side of the problem.

An open neutral to a house without the water pipe backing it up is dangerous to anyone outside the home that touches, an outdoor faucet, any electrical enclosures including the meter enclosure etc.

All these bonded parts will now be at a much higher potential than the earth.

That said with non-metallic water mains becoming the norm the entire issue will come a thing of the past.

This is true, but the danger will be ONLY to those at that location, not someone down the street... and these situations are usually gradual...Owner notices lights flickering, getting dim then bright. By not being interconnected these symptoms are noticed by the Homeowner, and more often than not repaired before it ever gets to a dangerous condition.

 

[tom baker]

If you'd like to resolve the issue install a die-electric coupling ((insulated coupling). BUT you must keep the water pipe GEC except it is now the water pipe bond, and you must install new electrodes, which you most likely did when you installed the new service.

This is the method recommended by the American Water Works Association.
They state that one meter reader (water) a day is shocked by working on a "hot meter".

 

[iwire]

Let me ask this.

This is true, but the danger will be ONLY to those at that location, not someone down the street...

Why is that such an important issue for you?

It's not like the residents at that particular house are responsible for a utilities open neutral.

The people in that particular house are no more at fault the the people down the street. Why is their safety of less importance?

In the end I don't really see one way or the other as having a distinct advantage or dis-advantage.

 

[megawatt]

Actually it is not dramatic. I have been involved in several investigations where a loose neutral resulted in damaged equipment and one fire. I have only heard about water utility personnel being hurt. I would think the possibility of a fire is higher.

I am all for plastic and or installing die-electric couplings, just trying to show you there are other issues involved.

I agree there are other issues, and I continue to inatall a cold water ground in every service I install.
I could take either side in a debate, & make valid points, and many of the experts here could do the same.
Here's a question for all. You have a properly installed & maintained service entrance in your Home. Unknown to You, Your neighbors neutral connection in his panel has been compromised in some way, and most of the unbalanced current in His system is being carried by Your service.
Are You the good neighbor, & don't mind helping a brother out ? and wouldn't mind letting someone You care about do some type of plumbing upgrade or repair on your water line ? Or would You want to be Isolated from his problem ?
Try going on a POCO trouble call where neighbor #1 has called due to "tingle" from plumber changing out a water tank, and then have neighbor # 2 come up & tell You He just lost his big screen TV, as His lights got "Real bright" ....and explain that. Now who pays for the big screen TV, and buys the Plumber some new drawers ? I guess I've wasted too much time on this subject, but it is something I have always thought was wrong to do and I had too much free time to jump on & off today.

 

[tonyou812]

I agree with meggwatt. we should be given the ability to correct a faulty issue as it comes up and not be forced to do nothing.