amps on h2o line
- Thread starter greenjeans
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JohnJ0906
Senior Member
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
karl riley said:
Usually around here, the POCO says "Not us! It must be in your house! Call an EC", then we come out, and have to talk to the POCO ourselves.
Sometimes they come out, check the meter base and nothing else, say "Not our problem" and have to return after we check the house.
They never check thoroughly the first time, IME. Seen it over and over.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
IMO, for those that feel they must put in an insulating fitting on the water line, do it outside, at least ten feet away from the building. The plastic inserted should be over six feet in length so the next guy in the hole can not easily touch both ends of what would/could be an ?open? current carrying conductor.
megawatt said:
There's no doubt that it's a superior grounding electrode, maybe just a little dangerous for plumbers.
In my 2 cent opinion.... The best set-up would be to Bond at the utility transformer with a 4 wire feed to the house
......Sure, it would require some code changes, but it wouldn't cause as many problems as the whole house AFCI will.........steve
M. D.
Senior Member
This is an interesting article on the subject,... I think in the future we will be doing more to reduce magnetic fields .
http://infoventures.com/emf/bener/bu-paper/bu43ni01.html
http://infoventures.com/emf/bener/bu-paper/bu43ni01.html
karl riley
Senior Member
M.D.
That is an excellent article by a well respected engineer. It is good to see an electrical condition researched in a thoroughly scientific manner. I recommend this article to all electricians here. It is short and to the point.
Dr. Maurer also did an excellent study of how much of the neutral in distribution lines travels in the earth. He measured currents on utility grounds all along the length of a distribution line. Out near the end, currents going into the earth, traveling parallel to the lines, are the greatest. At midpoint they are least, and then towards the substation they pick up but they are returning to the neutral line. The remnants of the current make it back through the substation ground grid.
As I remember, about 1/3 of the neutral return current travels in the earth by mid point. This takes a lot of ground rods along the way, since resistance at the rod interface is so high. But the current adds up.
Karl
That is an excellent article by a well respected engineer. It is good to see an electrical condition researched in a thoroughly scientific manner. I recommend this article to all electricians here. It is short and to the point.
Dr. Maurer also did an excellent study of how much of the neutral in distribution lines travels in the earth. He measured currents on utility grounds all along the length of a distribution line. Out near the end, currents going into the earth, traveling parallel to the lines, are the greatest. At midpoint they are least, and then towards the substation they pick up but they are returning to the neutral line. The remnants of the current make it back through the substation ground grid.
As I remember, about 1/3 of the neutral return current travels in the earth by mid point. This takes a lot of ground rods along the way, since resistance at the rod interface is so high. But the current adds up.
Karl
karl riley
Senior Member
Bob,
If you find a definition of "objectionable" let me know.
You say that since currents on water pipes exist by the thousands (millions?) that it isn't likely that it has suddenly become objectionable. From my perspective of how change takes place in human society, that is like saying, some years back, that since millions around the world smoke cigarrettes, and there are no health warnings from the government, that it is unlikely that smoking has suddenly become objectionable.
Progress happens, and it may be uncomfortable for awhile. And don't forget about those thousands of light poles grounded to a ground rod. That must be OK, right?
Karl
If you find a definition of "objectionable" let me know.
You say that since currents on water pipes exist by the thousands (millions?) that it isn't likely that it has suddenly become objectionable. From my perspective of how change takes place in human society, that is like saying, some years back, that since millions around the world smoke cigarrettes, and there are no health warnings from the government, that it is unlikely that smoking has suddenly become objectionable.
Progress happens, and it may be uncomfortable for awhile. And don't forget about those thousands of light poles grounded to a ground rod. That must be OK, right?
Karl
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
I to have current on a water pipe like Bob said there are millions out there but with a wet metal pipe in ground how could you get a better connection. I have never seen anyone hurt from this.. I do know the plumbers call right away and have some issues.. I would like to know a solution as well....
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Neutral current on a water pipe has become acceptable...it is not how a GEC was designed for use. The grounding electrode conductor is not a circuit conductor. It's purpose is not for carrying neutral current. I am not so sure how after so many years it has become acceptable...
Removing a portion of the water pipe and installing a dielectic fitting is not a violation of the NEC. At any time, the metallic cold water pipe to a building can be replaced with plastic (one of the reasons for having the metallic water pipe "supplemented") piping...it is being done on a daily basis.
But...
If you really want to get the attention of the utility company, it is relatively easy. Purchase or borrow a Gauss meter. Record the "EMF" levels and then let your customer hoot an holler to the Utility company, or even go to the local news. I am willing to say those kind of actions will grab their attention.
Quick story:
About 7 years ago, I ran into a situation where the utility company was being sued for just this type of scenario (big $$$). A restuarant was having issues with all of their electronics failing in the building regularly. Long story short, I was hired by the utility company to help resolve the situation. After some investigation and research, I suggested that the restaurant have the water pipe interrupted and install a dielectic fitting. They did (11 ft from the building entrance) resulting in all current on the water pipe and ground electrode system disappearing and they stopped having any issues with their electronics.
Removing a portion of the water pipe and installing a dielectic fitting is not a violation of the NEC. At any time, the metallic cold water pipe to a building can be replaced with plastic (one of the reasons for having the metallic water pipe "supplemented") piping...it is being done on a daily basis.
But...
If you really want to get the attention of the utility company, it is relatively easy. Purchase or borrow a Gauss meter. Record the "EMF" levels and then let your customer hoot an holler to the Utility company, or even go to the local news. I am willing to say those kind of actions will grab their attention.
Quick story:
About 7 years ago, I ran into a situation where the utility company was being sued for just this type of scenario (big $$$). A restuarant was having issues with all of their electronics failing in the building regularly. Long story short, I was hired by the utility company to help resolve the situation. After some investigation and research, I suggested that the restaurant have the water pipe interrupted and install a dielectic fitting. They did (11 ft from the building entrance) resulting in all current on the water pipe and ground electrode system disappearing and they stopped having any issues with their electronics.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
M. D. said:
good information thank you
plate
Senior Member
- Location
- South East PA
greenjeans said:
Ask the PWR company what measurements were taken. Did they get an ammeter around every SE line on every house, while each house was loaded?
I like Pierre's approach.
robertwilber
Member
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
I don't get the whole discussion
I never thought about it, but it is obvious that if you create this kind of conductor grid [which is what it is] at the back end of the neutral system [as there is no INTENTIONAL connection by the power companies between the cold water systems and the transformer neutral {only the casual GEC connections}] there MUST necessarily be a current on the cold water system.
The value can actually be predicted! If you were to measure the loads at ALL the properties attached to the same neutral conductor system, if the neutral segments of the circuit were all exactly equal in character [impossible, of course], then the neutral imbalance among ALL the properties would balance by way of the cold water "balancing grid" and each property would have a predictable current on the cold water pipe and GEC at the meter entrance.
I see no need to "isolate" each building.
This only serves to support the importance of connecting the GEC at the water entrance point, as is now required.
As far as the restaurant electronics problem noted earlier, I would think each machine could have been isolated locally by using non-conductive plastic water tubing to connect to the supply, thus eliminating the local "stray" current problem.
I never thought about it, but it is obvious that if you create this kind of conductor grid [which is what it is] at the back end of the neutral system [as there is no INTENTIONAL connection by the power companies between the cold water systems and the transformer neutral {only the casual GEC connections}] there MUST necessarily be a current on the cold water system.
The value can actually be predicted! If you were to measure the loads at ALL the properties attached to the same neutral conductor system, if the neutral segments of the circuit were all exactly equal in character [impossible, of course], then the neutral imbalance among ALL the properties would balance by way of the cold water "balancing grid" and each property would have a predictable current on the cold water pipe and GEC at the meter entrance.
I see no need to "isolate" each building.
This only serves to support the importance of connecting the GEC at the water entrance point, as is now required.
As far as the restaurant electronics problem noted earlier, I would think each machine could have been isolated locally by using non-conductive plastic water tubing to connect to the supply, thus eliminating the local "stray" current problem.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Depends upon your stance be it from a health issue, or A Power Quality issue.
Had one site several years ago where the water pipe was resulting in screen shake, with the advent of new monitors this issue has gone to the back burner but the customer had to be concerned about other tenants as well as the guy with screen shake, so they arranged to isolate the incoming water line. Myself I would not want to be in a current sharing pact with by neighbors. I went the extra mile when building my house to minimize EMF issues why should I now give up that extra effort for the lack of an isolating coupling.
plate
Senior Member
- Location
- South East PA
brian john said:
Please share, I am curious
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
plate said:
Probably no dead end 3ways, switchlegs etc...
karl riley
Senior Member
Robert,
If you are interested in what actually happens (from many investigations), because the impedances of the several service neutrals are not the same, the amperages on the different water service pipes are different.
With a gaussmeter one can follow the path of the current on the pipes out to the street, along the main in the street, as well as into the other houses sharing the transformer.
Usually most of the current is going into either one or two houses. Anyone with higher impedance on their neutral shunts a lot of neutral to the other houses, and the house with the tightest and newest neutral connections gets most of this current flowing through their pipes, even when there are no loads in that house.
The magnetic field on the pipe is identical to the magnetic field on the service drop. The imbalance is the same.
Karl
If you are interested in what actually happens (from many investigations), because the impedances of the several service neutrals are not the same, the amperages on the different water service pipes are different.
With a gaussmeter one can follow the path of the current on the pipes out to the street, along the main in the street, as well as into the other houses sharing the transformer.
Usually most of the current is going into either one or two houses. Anyone with higher impedance on their neutral shunts a lot of neutral to the other houses, and the house with the tightest and newest neutral connections gets most of this current flowing through their pipes, even when there are no loads in that house.
The magnetic field on the pipe is identical to the magnetic field on the service drop. The imbalance is the same.
Karl
This industrial electrical sort needs some help in understanding.stickboy1375 said:
I've heard of this one before - dead-end 3-ways causing a large mag field. Not being a house wirer, I suspect it's just that I don't know what a "dead-end 3-way" is.
I kow of three ways (not to be confused with "3-way") to wire a 3-way.
1. Power up to the light - switch leg down to the three ways
2. power to the far 3-way
3. Power to the near 3-way
It appears to me that the current is balanced in all sections of wiring, no matter which is used - which would say to me the mag fields cancel.
Keep in mind this is coming from an avid installer/specifier of dielectric flange kits in lots of underground piping - 2" to 16" and some dielectric unions in the 1/2" to 1-1/2" range.
carl
loose neutrals
loose neutrals
Wow, Are there a lot of type A homes in the neighborhood? Have you checked the incoming waterpipe amps and the electric bill lately?
The flip side of what megawatt mentioned is that an isolated waterpipe electrode system literally acts as a hazard due to the higher potential on the plumbing faucets as iwire pointed out. In the event of a faulty open neutral, I would rather have my neighbors meter spin for the 4 amps for the toaster or 12 amps for the frig line imbalanced returns rather than a dangerous potential existing. At least the dissipation is there.
It will be interesting to see if there are any corporate agendas that will support Ryan's fourth wire proposal. It has merit for putting a lot of linemen to work to pump up the economy for the utility moguls. rbj
loose neutrals
mama_taz said:
Wow, Are there a lot of type A homes in the neighborhood? Have you checked the incoming waterpipe amps and the electric bill lately?
The flip side of what megawatt mentioned is that an isolated waterpipe electrode system literally acts as a hazard due to the higher potential on the plumbing faucets as iwire pointed out. In the event of a faulty open neutral, I would rather have my neighbors meter spin for the 4 amps for the toaster or 12 amps for the frig line imbalanced returns rather than a dangerous potential existing. At least the dissipation is there.
It will be interesting to see if there are any corporate agendas that will support Ryan's fourth wire proposal. It has merit for putting a lot of linemen to work to pump up the economy for the utility moguls. rbj
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