Another Mobile Home
- Thread starter Esthy
- Start date
- Status
DWEames
Member
- Location
- New Orleans, LA
and technically speaking, on a job like this, for austerity's sake, you should probably go through and check every outlet to insure that someone did not combine the grounds and neutrals.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Continuity test at the panel is a big step toward determining this - of course to to it safely and properly one should have power disconnected and temporarily remove the main bonding jumper. This also would catch an inadvertently left in bonding jumper from neutral to frame on ranges and clothes dryers.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Remove bonding jumper at the service (temporarily for testing) and any wrongfully installed bonding jumpers at feeder panels. Keep everything else that is supposed to be bonded connected. If there are no other (accidenta or intentional) neutral to ground connections you should not see any continuity between the two. If you do there is a bond between them somewhere that should not be there - your task then is to find it. First places to look that are common problem areas is ranges and dryers. - simply unplugging them is a quick way to eliminate them from the continuity test. All it takes is for the occupant to get a new (or used) range or dryer and have the bonding jumper from neutral to frame left connected and you now have compromised the entire grounding system of the mobile home as neutral current can flow from the appliance neutral terminal to all items connected to the equipment ground conductor. Should the feeder neutral be damaged the EGC ends up becoming the neutral but nobody even knows anything is wrong for the most part.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
"Situation: a very old mobile home permanently installed at the site"
If I understand your question yes.
I am assuming that this is a pre 2008 NEC installation. Correct?
can I legally for a mobile home use the inside panel as a main and bond it to the 2 rods and leave, after cleaning the junction box as it is now?
If I understand your question yes. ... Even that this is a mobile home, metal frame, etc.?
I am assuming that this is a pre 2008 NEC installation. Correct? Oh, yes ...
If I understand your question yes. ... Even that this is a mobile home, metal frame, etc.?
I am assuming that this is a pre 2008 NEC installation. Correct? Oh, yes ...
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
In the past 'we' called the disconnect a separate structure -- so a 3wire was allowed to the 2nd structure assuming no paralleled paths.
From the 2014 handbook:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
For your own reasons I guess so, to find out if neutral conductors are connected to EGC or other bonding conductors it really doesn't matter, there should be no continuity between "grounded" and "grounding" on load side of service equipment if the bonding jumper is removed.
I would need to look up current editions but I seem to recall wording in there at one time that allowed to mount service equipment on the mobile home if the home were placed on a "permanent foundation". I recall words of a State inspector as the AHJ interpretation of "permanent foundation" would mean a typical footing and foundation for support of the structure like you would find on other "on site" constructed buildings. Typically the transport axles would need removed and the structure need to be anchored to the foundation - not to a typical earth anchor. Simple stacked cinder blocks with facade "skirting" (no matter how nice it may look) is not a permanent foundation.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
550.32 (B) that would be allowed for manufactured homes the allowance did not apply to mobile homes 550.32 (A)
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
OK.
Some manufactured homes are not all that easy to tell apart from a mobile home - you do need to look at the home's "nameplate" to know what you have.
And to help complicate things there is this statement in the definition of Mobile home in 550.2:
"For the purpose of this Code and unless otherwise indicated, the term mobile home includes manufactured homes."
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Mike I understand the question to be in regards to the interior panel ( distribution panel) 550.11 (A).
I do not believe he is talking about service equipment 550.32 (C)
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david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
True but I believed him to be asking about an old mobile home. All the older mobile homes around here have a metal siding and an arched roof.
We did not see vinyl siding and pitched roofs until the manufactured homes came along
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
All the mobile homes around here that once met that description and are still in reasonable condition have had roofs and siding replaced, the others that haven't had those things done really need to be condemned, and if you ask my wife about what is acceptable living conditions - she even may be surprised I said that.
I'd rather live in a sod house then some of those mobile homes that are really deteriorated.david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
We check the feeder connection inside when doing re-meter inspections on the mid 1970?s models I have to watch where I step on those particle board floors
I usually hear we going to be fixing that once we get the power back on
I usually hear we going to be fixing that once we get the power back on
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
David I understand your point.
From the information provided I consider this an existing installation and would allow the interior panel to be the first means of disconnect. Provided that the installation was safe.
Went today to check this Mobile Home (MH), see first page photos. Cleaned the junction box from webs (see photo 2) and found only 3 conductors coming and protected by 100 amps breaker at the Meter. Turned off breaker at the meter and removed mice carcasses, insulation and droppings from mice (see photo 3) and WITHOUT doing anything else, I turned on the breaker at the Meter and the top breaker of the Double Pole (one of the phases) for the split section stop working, so part of the lighting went off. While I checking, I Turned On one of the knobs of the Stove and suddenly the lights in the circuit in the split section (the ones controlled by the damaged top part of the DP) turned on (come alive).
Seeing a new stove with a 4 prongs that was installed by a handyman, I suspected and found the grounding strap bonded to the neutral. I removed the bonding and the ?problem? went away.
Follow with the situation: when the outside disconnect was change to a junction box with 3 conductors and ran to the inside panel, then this panel now is a ?main service panel without grounding rods? and the neutral and ground are now bonded including the frame. I don?t think that it should be in this way (see new photo) but as david and kwired were talking about the possibility that it was allowed before 2008.
This is a FP panel and after the Off and On today, the furnace 60 amps, the split 60 amps and a 15 amps breakers went kaput, luckily I had one 60 for the split and several 15s and 20s
1) I still confuse about this situation with the range and the lights (lights are in the split section), I assume current flowed on the neutral or ground, but it was working in this way for several months since the range was installed, and it went in this way when the breaker broke
2) Because of lack of money, can I keep this panel in this body metal MH as Main Service Panel installing 2 rods? Is it grandfathered? Or is it unsafe to continue with this configuration?
What bothered me is that I only have been with this organization 3 weeks and already 3 Mobile Homes got electrical fires, 1 per week and I found that here in WA there are thousands of FP, Zinsco and Pushmatic and today I was called for a malfunctioning panel/breakers and found a Sylvania, another ? any input about those Sylvania? Whoa, I never worked in MH, but I find this challenging.
Seeing a new stove with a 4 prongs that was installed by a handyman, I suspected and found the grounding strap bonded to the neutral. I removed the bonding and the ?problem? went away.
Follow with the situation: when the outside disconnect was change to a junction box with 3 conductors and ran to the inside panel, then this panel now is a ?main service panel without grounding rods? and the neutral and ground are now bonded including the frame. I don?t think that it should be in this way (see new photo) but as david and kwired were talking about the possibility that it was allowed before 2008.
This is a FP panel and after the Off and On today, the furnace 60 amps, the split 60 amps and a 15 amps breakers went kaput, luckily I had one 60 for the split and several 15s and 20s
1) I still confuse about this situation with the range and the lights (lights are in the split section), I assume current flowed on the neutral or ground, but it was working in this way for several months since the range was installed, and it went in this way when the breaker broke
2) Because of lack of money, can I keep this panel in this body metal MH as Main Service Panel installing 2 rods? Is it grandfathered? Or is it unsafe to continue with this configuration?
What bothered me is that I only have been with this organization 3 weeks and already 3 Mobile Homes got electrical fires, 1 per week and I found that here in WA there are thousands of FP, Zinsco and Pushmatic and today I was called for a malfunctioning panel/breakers and found a Sylvania, another ? any input about those Sylvania? Whoa, I never worked in MH, but I find this challenging.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Lets be clear it has never been compliant to install a three wire feeder as a supply to a mobile home.
No the installation is not safe. I have actually gotten blasted when walking up mobile homes with metal siding. In those instances an underground feeder conductor is lost for whatever reason someone concludes to use only three wires to supply a mobile home, Remember if correctly supplied the equipment grounding is isolated from the distribution panels neutral.
By removing the equipment ground a fault goes to the metal siding and as I did with wet grass you get blasted when you touch the siding.
Your picture is unclear but I Inspected a mobile home if not the exact panel one very similar. Though the equipment ground bus and the neutral bus look to be the upper and lower sections of two buses tied together when I looked closer the upper (neutral) bus was isolated from the lower (equipment ground Buss). I?m not saying it is but if that is the case with yours from the picture it appears that the black and white conductors are line one and line two. The green conductor appears to be the neutral.
If these are two separate busses (equipment ground and neutral) buses than you are making a connection to the neutral bus somewhere that the equipment ground is making contact with a neutral terminal. Perhaps at the dryer or the range or any branch circuit that the bare equipment ground is making inadvertent contact with a neutral terminal
When you lost say line two 240 /120 system and turned the knob on a 240 range line one could pass through the load (range element) and energize the line two half of the panel. Turning on a light circuit in the half of the panel where you lost line two. Though you might expect the lights to be dim depending on the resistance.
To be perfectly clear this was never grandfather in as code compliant, and in my opinion from someone that was nailed by one of these old mobile homes this cannot be considered safe.
No the installation is not safe. I have actually gotten blasted when walking up mobile homes with metal siding. In those instances an underground feeder conductor is lost for whatever reason someone concludes to use only three wires to supply a mobile home, Remember if correctly supplied the equipment grounding is isolated from the distribution panels neutral.
By removing the equipment ground a fault goes to the metal siding and as I did with wet grass you get blasted when you touch the siding.
Your picture is unclear but I Inspected a mobile home if not the exact panel one very similar. Though the equipment ground bus and the neutral bus look to be the upper and lower sections of two buses tied together when I looked closer the upper (neutral) bus was isolated from the lower (equipment ground Buss). I?m not saying it is but if that is the case with yours from the picture it appears that the black and white conductors are line one and line two. The green conductor appears to be the neutral.
If these are two separate busses (equipment ground and neutral) buses than you are making a connection to the neutral bus somewhere that the equipment ground is making contact with a neutral terminal. Perhaps at the dryer or the range or any branch circuit that the bare equipment ground is making inadvertent contact with a neutral terminal
When you lost say line two 240 /120 system and turned the knob on a 240 range line one could pass through the load (range element) and energize the line two half of the panel. Turning on a light circuit in the half of the panel where you lost line two. Though you might expect the lights to be dim depending on the resistance.
To be perfectly clear this was never grandfather in as code compliant, and in my opinion from someone that was nailed by one of these old mobile homes this cannot be considered safe.
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david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Looking at your picture again the green conductor seems to be tying to the neutral buss perhaps with the bonding screw removed The panel doesn?t seem to have an equipment ground buss.
You have bare equipment grounds lugged to the right side of the panel. You seem to have a white #12 or smaller conductor from the neutral buss lugged to the left side of the panel. Perhaps twisted with some bare equipment grounds. Don?t know for sure just looks that way from the pictures
You have bare equipment grounds lugged to the right side of the panel. You seem to have a white #12 or smaller conductor from the neutral buss lugged to the left side of the panel. Perhaps twisted with some bare equipment grounds. Don?t know for sure just looks that way from the pictures
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