Another Mobile Home

[Little Bill]

That disconnect can be on the same pole as the meter- but the disconnecting means for the home must be within 30 feet of the exterior wall of the home served. You could have four homes served by one pole with four meters/service disconnects - but most likely the pole would need to be in a central location and all four homes must be within 30 feet of it. More then four homes likely puts them too close together for fire or other zoning codes.

What I meant was both the meter and service equipment on the same pole. It is common practice here to have an overhead service with the meter and main disconnect on the same pole. Of course these are right next to the mobile home and an additional disconnect is not required. It is usually like this...
pole
meter
mast/riser
weatherhead
Service equipment/main panel nippled to the bottom of meter
Feed out from the bottom or side of main panel
Then under & up into the panel inside the mobile home

This would be for a single mobile home, not a park or group of mobile homes. I'm not sure what the OPs setup is though.

 

[Esthy]

I got donated funds to do this work, I am taking today a picture of the whole outside area to see if you can help me in this first Mobile Home upgrade, inspectors (2) here are not helping, even don't answering my emails, so I don't want to mess it. I like the idea to go from meter/disconnect to MH service panel, but I don't know if AHJ will approve this here. I am sending later the photo. Thanks!

This elderly lady bough he MH for $500.00, so imagine the condition.

 

[jxofaltrds]

It has never been my intention to define what is a permanent foundation in your area. I agree that it does not have to sit on a CMU (block) foundation to be a permanent foundation. Each state may have their own codes that will except what criteria defines a permanent foundation.

And I agree with you that a manufacture home that meets the states criteria does not need to be supplied by a feeder, and 550.32 (B) would apply

Thank you for explaining. Given that would you agree that a 3-wire in conduit would be 'outside the structure' and could then be 'landed' in the panel inside?

(1) The manufacturer shall include in its written installation instructions information indicating that the home shall be secured in place by an anchoring system or installed on and secured to a permanent foundation

 

[david]

Thank you for explaining. Given that would you agree that a 3-wire in conduit would be 'outside the structure' and could then be 'landed' in the panel inside?

(1) The manufacturer shall include in its written installation instructions information indicating that the home shall be secured in place by an anchoring system or installed on and secured to a permanent foundation

Being clear this does not pertain to the OP situation because I think it is fairly certain that the op is dealing with a mobile home, and he is not dealing with a manufactured home.
For a mobile home you cannot. Not now and not ever.

As far as a manufactured home goes if the states building code allows for a footing system that would allow that system than yes only if it is supplied by service not a ?feeder? and all of the applicable rules found in 230 apply. I have not seen any manufactures instructions that do not include all the other criteria stated in that section

However you live in Ohio and if the internet search information is correct Ohio uses the International residential code for this application.
Does the Ohio Building Code use (APPENDIX E:MANUFACTURED HOUSING USED AS DWELLINGS)
Not yelling just copy and pasted.

If so mike you could not use just a tie down system, your footings would go below frost.

And I said since I?m not a building official in the state of Ohio I won?t presume to define that for you.

 

[Esthy]

Here are pictures:

#1, #2, & #3 are for the set of meters with 100 amps breakers, I didn?t see any signs of rods, maybe are too deep in ground, there is, besides the 6 conduits, a small conduit in the back and maybe that is for the GEC for deeper rods (?)
#4 & #5 are for the Junction Box (old disconnect and changed to J-box?). It is the one on from of the green grass; the post at the left is a bird feeder. This J-box is less than 20? from the meter and it is the distance from the service panel entrance as well.

#6, #7, #8 & #9 are the back of the service panel; you can see the job there.

See in #6 the bare bonding conductor going to a new piece of galvanized water pipe (#9 photo) but it is not bonded to the metal frame.

My plan is to run 3 insulated new conductors (I think I have to rise the disconnect about 24? but the existing conductors are too short, unless I can legally use this J-box to tap the new conductors to the pedestal. Can do it?) from the meter to a new un-metered pedestal with a 100 amps disconnect, install the 2 rods from the pedestal and run 4 new insulated conductors to the new inside panel with another 100 amps breaker, (neutral & ground separated) so it can be disconnected from inside as well (I am taking in consideration, in case of necessity to disconnect inside because of the raining weather in this area)

The new service panel will contains all 15 & 20 amps Arc fault breakers; I hope I don?t encounter problems with this all metal MH.

OR, I would like to run the conductors directly from the meter and then use the inside panel as the main service panel with neutral and ground bonded and run the rods from there, and leave the meter with whatever bonding and grounding it has there, but I don?t think the AHJ would like that an I have no way to communicate with him.
Any input greatly respected and appreciated

 

[Esthy]

Sorry, here is #9

 

[Esthy]

Oh, the #4 bare inside the J-box is a piece of and nothing is connected there, it is hanging there.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Being clear this does not pertain to the OP situation because I think it is fairly certain that the op is dealing with a mobile home, and he is not dealing with a manufactured home.
For a mobile home you cannot. Not now and not ever.

As far as a manufactured home goes if the states building code allows for a footing system that would allow that system than yes only if it is supplied by service not a ?feeder? and all of the applicable rules found in 230 apply. I have not seen any manufactures instructions that do not include all the other criteria stated in that section

However you live in Ohio and if the internet search information is correct Ohio uses the International residential code for this application.
Does the Ohio Building Code use (APPENDIX E:MANUFACTURED HOUSING USED AS DWELLINGS)
Not yelling just copy and pasted.

If so mike you could not use just a tie down system, your footings would go below frost.

And I said since I?m not a building official in the state of Ohio I won?t presume to define that for you.

In Ohio OMHC has jurisdiction for the first year then it is supposed to fall under the RCO.

Yes I always say that the NEC is part of the 'Code' but in this case I am just arguing what is in 550.

550.2
???. For the purpose of this Code and unless otherwise indicated, the term mobile home includes manufactured homes.

From the Handbook:
Mobile home is the original term covering a structure that is built on a chassis, designed to be transportable and intended for installation on a site with or without a permanent foundation. Manufactured homes (not to be confused with manufactured buildings, covered in Article 545) are also covered by Article 550 and, for the purposes of this article, are considered mobile homes. The requirements in Article 550 treat mobile and manufactured homes the same unless specifically stated otherwise. An example of a distinction between the two is found in 550.32(A) and (B), which cover the location of service equipment for each structure.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Since you are replacing the panel and running new wire.

You need a disco outside and 4-wire to the new panel.

 

[david]

In Ohio OMHC has jurisdiction for the first year then it is supposed to fall under the RCO.

Yes I always say that the NEC is part of the 'Code' but in this case I am just arguing what is in 550.

550.2
???. For the purpose of this Code and unless otherwise indicated, the term mobile home includes manufactured homes.

From the Handbook:
Mobile home is the original term covering a structure that is built on a chassis, designed to be transportable and intended for installation on a site with or without a permanent foundation. Manufactured homes (not to be confused with manufactured buildings, covered in Article 545) are also covered by Article 550 and, for the purposes of this article, are considered mobile homes. The requirements in Article 550 treat mobile and manufactured homes the same unless specifically stated otherwise. An example of a distinction between the two is found in 550.32(A) and (B), which cover the location of service equipment for each structure.

From the Handbook:
Mobile home is the original term covering a structure that is built on a chassis, designed to be transportable and intended for installation on a site with or without a permanent foundation. Manufactured homes (not to be confused with manufactured buildings, covered in Article 545) are also covered by Article 550 and, for the purposes of this article, are considered mobile homes. The requirements in Article 550 treat mobile and manufactured homes the same unless specifically stated otherwise. An example of a distinction between the two is found in 550.32(A) and (B), which cover the location of service equipment for each structure.

 

[david]

Its actually pretty basic

Both types are allowed to have the sevice equipment outside and the supply to the distrubution would be required to be a 4=wire feeder 4 insulated conductors.

Only the manufactured home is allowed the service in or on the manufactured home only the manufactured home can utilize the requirements in 550.32 (B).
When the service egupment is installed on the manufactured home and is not utilizing the manufactured home distrubution panel as the service equipment. Than the feeder from the outside mounted on the the manufactured home, or inside on the block wall foundation the distrubution panel still must be supplied by a 4- insulated conductor feeder from the service location.

 

[Little Bill]

OR, I would like to run the conductors directly from the meter and then use the inside panel as the main service panel with neutral and ground bonded and run the rods from there, and leave the meter with whatever bonding and grounding it has there, but I don?t think the AHJ would like that an I have no way to communicate with him.
Any input greatly respected and appreciated

Esthy, I don't want to sound rude, but what you're wanting to do from the quoted statement is not allowed and we have stated that. You have a mobile home and the main service equipment must be outside. Then run the 4-wire to the inside panel. It also has to have a main breaker but the neutrals & grounds must be isolated.

I would bet that there is a GEC (grounding electrode conductor) already installed at the pedestal. You should be able to see where one of the conduits comes out of either the meter base or disconnect. That conduit most likely contains the GEC.

Edit: It looks like there is one conduit on the back side of the meter pedestal. Also looks like it is PVC. But I would say that is most likely your GEC.

 

[jxofaltrds]

From the Handbook:
Mobile home is the original term covering a structure that is built on a chassis, designed to be transportable and intended for installation on a site with or without a permanent foundation. Manufactured homes (not to be confused with manufactured buildings, covered in Article 545) are also covered by Article 550 and, for the purposes of this article, are considered mobile homes. The requirements in Article 550 treat mobile and manufactured homes the same unless specifically stated otherwise. An example of a distinction between the two is found in 550.32(A) and (B), which cover the location of service equipment for each structure.

Where the service equipment is not installed in or on the unit, the installation shall comply with the other provisions of this section.


Again from the handbook:

This section specifies the conditions required for installing the service equipment in or on a manufactured home. The concern over the unit being moved off site without the ability to disconnect the electrical supply is addressed in condition (1). A manufactured home with a service in or on the unit must be anchored in place or secured to a permanent foundation. The other specified conditions cover the need to provide proper grounding and bonding conductors, systems, and connections and the need to install the service equipment in accordance with the applicable requirements in Article 230. These requirements apply only to manufactured homes as defined in 550.2.

After 15 Jun 1976 HUD considers mobile and manufactured to be the same.

 

[david]

Where the service equipment is not installed in or on the unit, the installation shall comply with the other provisions of this section.

Again from the handbook:

After 15 Jun 1976 HUD considers mobile and manufactured to be the same. View attachment 12252

The handbook was not implying that to be retroactive. The fact is manufactured homes are the ones being manufactured these days. That statement did not mean that all the mobile homes manufactured as mobile homes after that date fall under the classification as being manufactured homes.

When all the mobile homes rust away then this issue will as well. We still have a lot of existing mobile homes so until then I too will look at the manufactures tag to determine what rules apply.

 

[Esthy]

The concern over the unit being moved off site without the ability to disconnect the electrical supply: I agreed and I will add the disconnect/pedestal to the already meter/disconnect at the site.

When I suggested "OR, I would like to run the conductors directly from the meter and then use the inside panel as the main service panel with neutral and ground bonded and run the rods from there, and leave the meter with whatever bonding and grounding it has there" is because I saw this and there is no a disconnect/pedestal between the meter and service panel

 

[jxofaltrds]

The handbook was not implying that to be retroactive. The fact is manufactured homes are the ones being manufactured these days. That statement did not mean that all the mobile homes manufactured as mobile homes after that date fall under the classification as being manufactured homes.

When all the mobile homes rust away then this issue will as well. We still have a lot of existing mobile homes so until then I too will look at the manufactures tag to determine what rules apply.

I may be wrong, and everyone knows that I have, but it seems that HUD and the NEC are treating them the same. IMHO the disconnect was so you could quickly and safely move the 'mobile' home.

I do not like the way 550.32 is written. It would be easier to have (A) apply to a rented space and (B) apply to private property when (1-7) are met.

"A manufactured home (formerly known as a mobile home) is built to the Manufactured Home Construction and Safety Standards (HUD Code) and displays a red certification label on the exterior of each transportable section. Manufactured homes are built in the controlled environment of a manufacturing plant and are transported in one or more sections on a permanent chassis."

From: http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/housing/ramh/mhs/faq

 

[jxofaltrds]

The concern over the unit being moved off site without the ability to disconnect the electrical supply: I agreed and I will add the disconnect/pedestal to the already meter/disconnect at the site.

When I suggested "OR, I would like to run the conductors directly from the meter and then use the inside panel as the main service panel with neutral and ground bonded and run the rods from there, and leave the meter with whatever bonding and grounding it has there" is because I saw this and there is no a disconnect/pedestal between the meter and service panel

Using your picture. Prior to 2008 NEC I would have approved a 3-wire IF it was outside of the structure to the inside panel. If you had a block foundation a outside disconnect on or within 30' would have been required.

IF you are using the 2014 NEC a wire is required in your last example. Now it gets tricky. If the pole disconnect is within 30' you are good to go. If not you can mount it on or with 30' of the unit.

 

[david]

I may be wrong, and everyone knows that I have, but it seems that HUD and the NEC are treating them the same. IMHO the disconnect was so you could quickly and safely move the 'mobile' home.

Other than them both being mobile, neither HUD nor the NEC are treating them the same. If they where we wasted a lot of time disguising the difference between the two. Now granted single units are easier to move than a double wide. But that?s what the metal chasse system is for so if the owner choices he can move taking his home with him, no matter if a rental lot or privately owned

I do not like the way 550.32 is written. It would be easier to have (A) apply to a rented space and (B) apply to private property when (1-7) are met.

They are designed to be moved if there set up on rental lots or private lots

They are designed to be moved that?s why they have a chasse. These guys who roll them onto block foundations tell me they are easier to set on a foundation than peer sets especially the single wide units.

 

[Little Bill]

Using your picture. Prior to 2008 NEC I would have approved a 3-wire IF it was outside of the structure to the inside panel. If you had a block foundation a outside disconnect on or within 30' would have been required.

IF you are using the 2014 NEC a wire is required in your last example. Now it gets tricky. If the pole disconnect is within 30' you are good to go. If not you can mount it on or with 30' of the unit.

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here. But if you're saying that prior to the 2008 you would have allowed a 3-wire feed from the outside disconnect to the inside distribution panel, you would be wrong. Other than all the requirements in 550.32(B) being met, a 3-wire feed was not & is not allowed to a mobile home.

 

[david]

550.11(A) and 550.32(A) were added in the 2005NEC. That said where am I prohibited from treating this like any stick built home on a perm. foundation? See 550.32(B)

After 15 Jun 1976 HUD considers mobile and manufactured to be the same.

I may be wrong, and everyone knows that I have, but it seems that HUD and the NEC are treating them the same. IMHO the disconnect was so you could quickly and safely move the 'mobile' home.

I kept wondering why you are so vested in this seeming unreasonable position.

The more you posted on this subject the clearer it became. You believed and it seems still do believe, that there is no difference between stick built and mobile home rules when it comes to the electrical supply requirements.

You also believe in June of 1976 HUD took a position that mobile homes and manufacture homes are the same. You are so vested in this position because you done over a thousand electrical inspections with this point of view. According to your statement that was just the ones after the year 2000.

Prior to 2008 NEC I would have approved a 3-wire IF it was outside of the structure to the inside panel. If you had a block foundation a outside disconnect on or within 30' would have been required.

In the past 'we' called the disconnect a separate structure -- so a 3wire was allowed to the 2nd structure assuming no paralleled paths.

You are stating from the outside 3-wire to the manufactured installed distribution panel

Then you have your repeated statement prior to 2008 and a separate structure. At first I didn?t understand why you kept putting emphasis on prior to 2008. Then it hit me you came on board requiring a four wire feeder into the mobile/manufactured home when feeding its distrubution panel from another structure. Not because article 550 required it all along, but because 3 wire feeder became absolute by other sections of the code. So that tells me in your way of thinking there is still no difference between stick built homes than manufactured homes.

The OP was asking about an existing installation. He may very well be code compliant

I consider this an existing installation and would allow the interior panel to be the first means of disconnect. Provided that the installation was safe

You keep saying a three wire feeder is safe, you need to quit advising the OP until you recognize article 550 rules when supplied by a feeder always required a four wire feeder to the distribution panel and you cannot deem the installation safe until it meets the min. requirements as outlined in article 550.

FYI - I performed over 1000 'sets', foundation, electrical and final set (C of O) inspections, after the Federal Regulations went into to effect in the late 2000's.

Prior to the 2008 NEC you could set a home as in the picture and run a 3-wire in conduit and up into the home and use the interior (factory) panel as the first means of disconnect.

I am assuming that this is a pre 2008 NEC installation. Correct?