Another receptacle location thread/poll

[Pierre C Belarge]

From the ICC building code

Wall:
A vertical element with a horizontal length-to-thickness ratio greater than three, used to enclose a space.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

From the NEC

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space.
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings.

"such as" does not restrict the requirement to freestanding bartype counters or railings.

Fixed room dividers is part of the requirement. I do not even see the need for the glass to be defined as a wall. It certainly can be considered as a "fixed room divider."

 

[wbalsam1]

I remember the Code making a distinction between "wall" and "partition" back in the '02 edition at 210.52(D) when it amended the '99 edition to include the word "partition" thus allowing a receptacle to be installed in a partition in a bathroom. So with this reasoning in mind, there is clearly a difference in the two. Therefore when 250.52(A)(1)&(2) specifically mention "wall", they are not referring to "partition".

(As an aside, our language in our 2007 RCNYS (E3801.6) still does not mention "partition" meaning that a strict reading would require a "wall" for a bathroom receptacle.)

 

[480sparky]

So knee walls don't require receps because they don't extend to the ceiling?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I remember the Code making a distinction between "wall" and "partition" back in the '02 edition at 210.52(D) when it amended the '99 edition to include the word "partition" thus allowing a receptacle to be installed in a partition in a bathroom. So with this reasoning in mind, there is clearly a difference in the two. Therefore when 250.52(A)(1)&(2) specifically mention "wall", they are not referring to "partition".

(As an aside, our language in our 2007 RCNYS (E3801.6) still does not mention "partition" meaning that a strict reading would require a "wall" for a bathroom receptacle.)

Fred
First we have to get the inspectors to buy the RCNYS, then we would have to see them read the RCNYS, then we would have to explain it to them and some BOs.

I do not see this happening until the current crop of "inspectors set in their ways" retires and the newer ones are brought up on the State Codes.

P.S. You went into definitions...that is almost tabu to some of our guys. :grin:

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

So knee walls don't require receps because they don't extend to the ceiling?

Do knee walls divide a space?

 

[JohnJ0906]

After looking at that picture, all I can think is..... I hope they don't have kids. I can't imagine how often that would need to be cleaned to get rid of the fingerprints. :grin:




Oh, yeah. I voted "Yes"

 

[480sparky]

Do knee walls divide a space?

No.

 

[220/221]

Sure it does. I've had to install floor boxes befor in similar situations, exterior wall floor to ceiling glass.

 

[charlie b]

From the ICC building code

We don't have to follow any specific entity's definition of a word that is not specifically defined in the NEC. We revert to industry standard usage. That glass thingy does not become a wall for NEC purposes, simply because we can find one definition in the ICC code or a common dictionary that seems to fit. This may well be one of those areas in which the AHJ has the only opinion that matters. It may also be one in which I would lose the argument with the AHJ for no other reason than that. But nobody has yet provided a reason that I find compelling to accept this thingy as fitting the wall rules.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

We don't have to follow any specific entity's definition of a word that is not specifically defined in the NEC. We revert to industry standard usage. That glass thingy does not become a wall for NEC purposes, simply because we can find one definition in the ICC code or a common dictionary that seems to fit. This may well be one of those areas in which the AHJ has the only opinion that matters. It may also be one in which I would lose the argument with the AHJ for no other reason than that. But nobody has yet provided a reason that I find compelling to accept this thingy as fitting the wall rules.

Ahh yes...as you have stated, opinions.

Your opinion is noted.

 

[charlie b]

(Regarding 210.52(A)(2) Wall Space.)

"such as" does not restrict the requirement to freestanding bartype counters or railings.

True, but not relevant. Here is why:

Fixed room dividers is part of the requirement. I do not even see the need for the glass to be defined as a wall. It certainly can be considered as a "fixed room divider."

It need not be glass, but it does need to be a room divider. Remove the glass thingy. Stand on the second floor, right next to where it used to be. Behind you is a room. In front of you is not a room, it is a void. Step into the void and you get hurt. Put the glass thingy back. It has not divided a room into two areas, and it does not separate one room from another. It is not a room divider, so this article does not apply.

I submitted a code change proposal for 2011 on this exact point. I am anxious to see how it was received.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I submitted a code change proposal for 2011 on this exact point. I am anxious to see how it was received.

We will all be curious...can you speed the process up some. Tomorrow??

 

[cowboyjwc]

If the fixed side of a sliding glass door is considered wall space, I would consider this wall space as well.

 

[BryanMD]

If the fixed side of a sliding glass door is considered wall space, I would consider this wall space as well.

I suspect the header over the door opening and the common option of multiple and swinging doors are factors that affect this analogy.

 

[al hildenbrand]

consider this: Look at the architectural plans for the second floor of this house. You come to this vertical thingy that I will not name "wall," and you look at both sides of this thingy, as shown on the plans. Would you see two rooms, with this thingy in the middle? No, you would not. You would see one room, and then an opening (i.e., for the staircase).

Whether one can see through the material of a wall, and what one thinks about what one sees if one does look though, is beside the point of 210.52(A)(1).

One can't go over or under or through this "vertical thingy" and it is included in "Any space" wider than two feet, which, in my mind, is simply a wall.

 

[brother]

Whether one can see through the material of a wall, and what one thinks about what one sees if one does look though, is beside the point of 210.52(A)(1).

One can't go over or under or through this "vertical thingy" and it is included in "Any space" wider than two feet, which, in my mind, is simply a wall.

I got one for ya, what about a 'wall of AIR' lol. so is a receptacle required??

 

[quogueelectric]

It is a stairwell partition as far as I am concerned not a wall.

 

[The Iceman]

If this was a wood stud and sheet rock wall most of you seem to agree that a receptacle is required. Because it's made of glass shouldn't make a difference. Lets say for example it's christmas, and someone puts a table in front of that glass wall. Then puts a little christmas tree with lights on that table. Were are they going to get power for it. I would be afraid someone would run an extension cord in front of the stairs and plug it in the nearest receptacle. I think it's a safety issue/code violation.

 

[al hildenbrand]

It is a stairwell partition as far as I am concerned not a wall.

With your thought in mind, and looking again at Pierre's photo in the OP,:

If the glass "vertical thingy" in the foreground side of the Stairwell is a partition, what is the opaque "vertical thingy" in the background behind the stair treads, that is, the opaque vertical thingy between the door at the top of the stairs to the lower level and the right edge of the photo?
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