Another receptacle location thread/poll

[M. D.]

Not a wall and not dividing a room ,.. the foot prints tell me the space in front of the glass is a hallway ,. which may indeed require a receptacle outlet.

full disclosure ,.I did not read the whole thread .

 

[rcelec]

Cool...I take great pride in my work,holes drilled straight,wires flat and true a neat job
top to bottom.It would be a real pride thing to do a glass house.
I might even put a vanity plaque in the wall just to let them know who did it!!

And the outlet,I don't think there is an inspector,no hand rail to lower level and the stairs going up are some architect's interpetation of "A Stairway To Heaven."They would never pass anywhere I have worked.

 

[480sparky]

...........And the outlet,I don't think there is an inspector,no hand rail to lower level and the stairs going up are some architect's interpetation of "A Stairway To Heaven."They would never pass anywhere I have worked.

Judging by the stair treads and risers themselves, I'd say this is a work in progress.

 

[cycotcskir]

True, but not relevant. Here is why:

It need not be glass, but it does need to be a room divider. Remove the glass thingy. Stand on the second floor, right next to where it used to be. Behind you is a room. In front of you is not a room, it is a void. Step into the void and you get hurt. Put the glass thingy back. It has not divided a room into two areas, and it does not separate one room from another. It is not a room divider, so this article does not apply.

Doesn't the glass divide the room and the stairs?

I'm not convinced that in order to be considered a "room divider" it must divide within a room, or a room from a room. The whole point of the glass is to divide the room from the stairs (presumably for safety).

What if this glass was dividing the room from a closet?

Imagine if you added a closet to a old room without one. Now make it with glass. Maybe a sort of stylish built-in book case closet in the corner of the room. Would the portion of the glass that sticks out from the wall 2-3' be considered "wallspace"?

 

[al hildenbrand]

I got one for ya, what about a 'wall of AIR' lol. so is a receptacle required??

One can walk through AIR, not a wall.

 

[pfalcon]

I'm with Charlie Beck on this.

It is not constructed as a wall but as a fixed partition or fixed divider. There is no room on the backside so it is not a room divider. It is not on an external wall. It is not required.

As to plugging in a miniature Christmas tree on a nightstand there, a floor receptacle would be nice. If that were a safety rail instead then I would still think that floor receptacle would be nice. I don't think it's so nice that it makes it required. I've seen plenty of furniture backed up to stairways with safety rails and not one single receptacle.

And as I have said since 1978: A rose by any other name is tax deductible.

The argument here isn't whether a receptacle is required. The argument is what name we give the divider. The name determines what is required.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Doesn't the glass divide the room and the stairs?
. . .
What if this glass was dividing the room from a closet?

Nice turn of thought.

Or, if the opaque "vertical thingy" in Pierre's OP photo (the stairwell back wall), has a Bath on it's other side. . . .Some are claiming the glass to be partition, so how can I not claim the opaque "vertical thingy" to be partition, AND, therefore, the Bath and the Livingroom are really all one. . .

etc., etc. A wall around a Bath area is not required. . .what if it has glass "vertical thingys" around it as well. . .

Inside or outside doesn't help distinguish what a wall is, as there are clearly "inside" walls as well.

 

[pfalcon]

Doesn't the glass divide the room and the stairs?

I'm not convinced that in order to be considered a "room divider" it must divide within a room, or a room from a room. The whole point of the glass is to divide the room from the stairs (presumably for safety).

What if this glass was dividing the room from a closet?

Imagine if you added a closet to a old room without one. Now make it with glass. Maybe a sort of stylish built-in book case closet in the corner of the room. Would the portion of the glass that sticks out from the wall 2-3' be considered "wallspace"?

Article 100 definition: Clothes Closet - A non-habitable room ...

Therefore your glass divider between the bedroom and the closet is separating two rooms.

 

[pfalcon]

Nice turn of thought.

Or, if the opaque "vertical thingy" in Pierre's OP photo (the stairwell back wall), has a Bath on it's other side. . . .Some are claiming the glass to be partition, so how can I not claim the opaque "vertical thingy" to be partition, AND, therefore, the Bath and the Livingroom are really all one. . .

etc., etc. A wall around a Bath area is not required. . .what if it has glass "vertical thingys" around it as well. . .

Inside or outside doesn't help distinguish what a wall is, as there are clearly "inside" walls as well.

This one is amusing for its visual effect. Place a bath area on the other side of the back wall of the staircase. Its construction style makes it a wall not a divider. Replace the back wall with glass dividers and sell tickets ... er, and it becomes "not a wall" but a fixed divider and a showpiece :grin:.

I toured an "open" concept house. When you were in the hallway you could look to the end through the double arch, through the bedroom, through the missing bath wall, to look face to face with the king holding court on his pedestal throne :grin:.

No wall, no receptacle. The key is that a staircase is a non-habitable space but not a room of any type.

 

[cycotcskir]

Article 100 definition: Clothes Closet - A non-habitable room ...

Therefore your glass divider between the bedroom and the closet is separating two rooms.

Granted.

I tried to explain my idea using the word closet so the structural idea would be easily understood. I added "Maybe a sort of stylish built-in book case" to adjust the description. I wasn't quite sure how to put my thought to text.

Since you mentioned the definition though, I wonder how the NEC defines a room. I can't find it.

Websters dictionary says:
1: an extent of space occupied by or sufficient or available for something
2 aobsolete : an appropriate or designated position, post, or station b: place , stead
3 a: a partitioned part of the inside of a building

Number 1 - stairs occupy the space, is a stairway a room?
Number 3 - is the glass "partitioning" the stairway from the room? (my original thought on the subject)

 

[480sparky]

.........The argument here isn't whether a receptacle is required. The argument is what name we give the divider. The name determines what is required.

I don't think it's what we call it.... it's what it truly is.

If we are allowed to call something a name that's specifically listed in some building code, then we can skirt just about any code we want.

Don't want to put smokes in the bedrooms? Call them the Playroom, sewing room, craft room. Save money on kitchen GFIs and SABCs by not having a kitchen, but a Food Preparation Area.


If I get pulled over for speeding, I just can't tell the officer, "I'm sorry, sir, but I was not speeding. I was qualifying."

 

[cycotcskir]

not[/B] speeding. I was qualifying."

I have to try that one. Imagine the look on the cops face.

I always hate it when someone tells me, "well, Ive been doing it this way for (years, months, decades, or at this place) and it's never been an issue with any inspector" My response is generally to the effect of, "When a cop pulls me over for speeding, Should I then say to him, 'I ve been speeding down I-95 for 20 years and no one has ever stopped me in the past, so why are you making a big deal about it?'"

 

[charlie b]

If the fixed side of a sliding glass door is considered wall space, I would consider this wall space as well.

That only counts for exterior walls.

 

[charlie b]

One can't go over or under or through this "vertical thingy" and it is included in "Any space" wider than two feet, which, in my mind, is simply a wall.

While reading the NEC article in question, you don't get to the words "Any space," without first coming upon the words, in the article title, "Wall Space." The rest of that article tells us,
(1) If you have a wall and it is too short, then it doesn't count, and
(2) If you have a wall, and it is wide enough, then it counts, and
(3) There are two specific instances of thingys that aren't walls, but that are to be counted as wall space anyway.

So if I have something that (A) Isn't a wall, as this thingy is not, and (B) Isn't one of the two non-wall-but-counts-as-wall-space-anyway thingys, which this thingy is also not, then I get to walk away from this article without doing any installation work.

 

[cycotcskir]

(3) There are two specific instances of thingys that aren't walls, but that are to be counted as wall space anyway. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

So if I have something that (A) Isn't a wall, as this thingy is not, and (B) Isn't one of the two non-wall-but-counts-as-wall-space-anyway thingys, which this thingy is also not, then I get to walk away from this article without doing any installation work.

I like your hyphenated wording.

#3 states "such as" which means that at least one thing other than the two mentioned could also apply.

 

[charlie b]

I like your hyphenated wording.

Thanks. I was hoping to trade linguistic elegance for clarity.

#3 states "such as" which means that at least one thing other than the two mentioned could also apply.

True. But the "such as" is not how the sentence begins. It is talking about a fixed room divider for which a free standing bar counter is one example. It is talking about a fixed room divider for which a railing is one example. But the subject of that particular sentence is the fixed room divider. If you don't have a fixed room divider, you can stop reading the sentence at that point, for the remainder of the sentence does not apply to your situation.

 

[cycotcskir]

True. But the "such as" is not how the sentence begins. It is talking about a fixed room divider for which a free standing bar counter is one example. It is talking about a fixed room divider for which a railing is one example. But the subject of that particular sentence is the fixed room divider. If you don't have a fixed room divider, you can stop reading the sentence at that point, for the remainder of the sentence does not apply to your situation.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I understand your point, but I happen to be one of the ones that sees the glass as a divider between the room and the stairs, and it is definitely fixed.

It seems that there will never be total agreement without clear definition from the Code on the meanings of wall, fixed room divider, room, etc. This, of course, will be left to the AHJ as stated earlier. In my case, and if I inspected Residential, then it needs a rec. I personally don't think that it needs to be there from a practical viewpoint, but as I read the code it does.

BTW: The ICC is adopted in some areas, so the definition wouldn't be an issue of picking any definition that suits your needs... in those areas.

 

[charlie b]

It seems that there will never be total agreement without clear definition from the Code on the meanings of wall, fixed room divider, room, etc.

That is what I am hoping comes out of my proposed code revision. I think I'll look on-line, to see if the cognizant CMP has published its ROC yet.

BTW: The ICC is adopted in some areas, so the definition wouldn't be an issue of picking any definition that suits your needs... in those areas.

But what would compel the reader of the NEC to go to that source, when in need of a definition?

 

[cycotcskir]

But what would compel the reader of the NEC to go to that source, when in need of a definition? [/SIZE][/FONT]

Ambiguity, curiosity, attention to detail, job/local specs, adoption by AHJ.

 

[al hildenbrand]

So if I have something that (A) Isn't a wall, as this thingy is not, . . .

Well, this is what the discussion is hinging on.

I look at this "thingy" and I see tools and skill required to attach to structure above and below the "thingy" and that seems real similar to the attachment of top and bottom plates of a frame "wall" with ?" drywall on both sides.

I'll bet I can go through drywall covered frame wall quicker and easier than I can go through this (OP photo) glass wall.

I can lightly kick in the drywall with my toe, and pull it apart, and I'm through. I've either got to get a striking tool, or I've really got to wail on the glass to get through it.

Charlie, I get that you start with the declaration the this glass thingy is not wall. . .Help me with the basis for this declaration.