Ansul system

[gadfly56]

They must not be very qualified around here, I have never seen anyone do hardly any kind of testing on these systems. I also have hardly ever seen fans for make up air, some at least have free ventilation for make up air, others - you can tell there is little or no make up air just by how hard it is to break the seal when you enter the front door.

Proper testing of a new installation (10 foot hood) should take about a half hour of prep, a half hour to run through the manual activation and automatic activation, confirm fire alarm tie in, signals received at central station, etc, and about half an hour to clean up and return the system to normal.

Proper maintenance, test, and inspection (every six months) should run about an hour for the same system.

 

[goldstar]

If local amendments require. It's not in the IBC, IMC, or NFPA 17A.

It's got to be documented somewhere. I can't believe that one bldg. inspector knows more than the one in the next town or that one FD's wants the fan on anf the FD in the next town doesn't. The fire inspector in my town didn't even know the proper operation. I had to get it from the bldg. inspector and piecemeal. I ended up rewiring two systems 3 times at my own expense.

Since the codes do require the exhaust to be on when the cooking appliances are on, the exhaust should be operating at the time of system discharge.

That would be the case. Either the exhaust fan switch is turned on before the cooking starts or if a grease fire occurs without the switch on then the hood T-stat will take over.

 

[kwired]

Proper testing of a new installation (10 foot hood) should take about a half hour of prep, a half hour to run through the manual activation and automatic activation, confirm fire alarm tie in, signals received at central station, etc, and about half an hour to clean up and return the system to normal.

Proper maintenance, test, and inspection (every six months) should run about an hour for the same system.

You are going to laugh at this one also - Confirm what fire alarm tie in? Particularly at restaurants.

A school or hospital cafeteria may have a fire alarm on the rest of the premises (none of the older existing facilities I have worked in are tied to the FA though) but the small family owned restaurant in this area probably doesn't, and isn't required to until it reaches a certain size - though I don't know what that is.

I don't really work in any of the national franchises that are in the area, but I can see they might specify such installations to meet codes that need to be met in other areas. I have worked in a few Subway restaurants - but they have no cooking hoods. If you have no fryers you generally don't even need a fire suppression system around here. Some places have smaller "auto fry" machines that the fire marshal does allow without a fire suppression system, they don't contain a large amount of hot oil like a conventional fryer does. They won't cook as much quantity as fast as a conventional fryer will either though so not so suitable for higher demand cooking needs.

 

[goldstar]

If you have no fryers you generally don't even need a fire suppression system around here.

Just to give you an idea of how bizarre it's gotten around here, it used to be if you had a deep frier you needed a suppression system. Now, some Codes are viewing "having the capability" of having a frying pan on a cooktop as being able to "fry". The fire inspector in my town made all facilities with cooking capabilities install fire suppression systems - including fire depts. And yes, they are ticked off at him to say the least.

 

[tkb]

With the last Ansul system that I had involvement, when the system tripped the exhaust had to go to full speed even if it was not running and the power under the hood had to shunt trip.
Also the gas valve had to close. At the same time the makeup air had to shut down.

The gas valve was mechanically controlled by the Ansul system.
The Ansul system also tripped the FA system into alarm.

Per plumbing code, the gas valve was connected through a CO detector that when activated would close an electric gas valve. This valve has a manual reset next to the fan control cabinet. Whenever there is a power interruption it must be reset. The CO detector was a supervisory on the FA system.

It took the plumbing inspector, building inspector and fire inspector all in the room the day of the inspection to finalize the sequence of operation since they were individually giving conflicting information.

 

[mgookin]

Just to give you an idea of how bizarre it's gotten around here, it used to be if you had a deep frier you needed a suppression system. Now, some Codes are viewing "having the capability" of having a frying pan on a cooktop as being able to "fry". The fire inspector in my town made all facilities with cooking capabilities install fire suppression systems - including fire depts. And yes, they are ticked off at him to say the least.

I'ts not just frying that needs a hood. It's commercial cooking that needs a hood with suppression.
About all you can have anymore in the office kitchen is a coffee pot and a microwave unless you install a hood.

 

[kwired]

I'ts not just frying that needs a hood. It's commercial cooking that needs a hood with suppression.
About all you can have anymore in the office kitchen is a coffee pot and a microwave unless you install a hood.

Why, you can start a fire with those appliances though it may not be quite as easy as some other cooking appliances.

What is "commercial cooking"? If I make a food item that needs no heating in the process and sell it does that meet the definition?

Been involved with many fundraiser concession stands or church dinners that just have portable crock pots or the heavier duty "roaster pans" that may or may not be used for food preparation but definitely are there as a warmer at serving time. The concession stands may have popcorn machines, hot dog grilles, cheese sauce heater/dispenser machines for nachos, maybe even a pizza oven, none of them ever have fire suppression systems or exhaust hoods, other then if the concession is done in the general kitchen that already has a hood over permanent cooking equipment.

I have done small rural church fellowship halls that if they put in household ranges the fire marshal only requires household type range hoods over them and nothing else.

 

[mgookin]

Why, ....

That is not a question to ask a messenger. It is a question to ask a CMP.

Edit: I just read NFPA 1 Chapter 50 and they have new for 2015 edition the authority for AHJ to "let it slide" when you have commercial cooking. There are 3 other conditions that have to be met but they're easy (extinguishers, etc.).
Seems now you can, if your fire marshal lets you, install that residential range in your office kitchen.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Why, you can start a fire with those appliances though it may not be quite as easy as some other cooking appliances.

What is "commercial cooking"? If I make a food item that needs no heating in the process and sell it does that meet the definition?

Been involved with many fundraiser concession stands or church dinners that just have portable crock pots or the heavier duty "roaster pans" that may or may not be used for food preparation but definitely are there as a warmer at serving time. The concession stands may have popcorn machines, hot dog grilles, cheese sauce heater/dispenser machines for nachos, maybe even a pizza oven, none of them ever have fire suppression systems or exhaust hoods, other then if the concession is done in the general kitchen that already has a hood over permanent cooking equipment.

I have done small rural church fellowship halls that if they put in household ranges the fire marshal only requires household type range hoods over them and nothing else.

If your using the International Mechanical Code (IMC) then those appliances do not need a Type 1 hood with suppresion. A Type I hoods shall be installed wherecooking appliances produce grease or smoke. Those appliances you listed would need a Type 2 hood or have the heat removed by a/c system.

 

[kwired]

A Type I hoods shall be installed wherecooking appliances produce grease or smoke.

Don't really know the codes used, but if that is the wording used I see all sorts of room for confusion, and understand why some mentioned the coffee pot and microwave only don't need a hood but most every other cooking appliance does. I hope there is more to it then just whether or not it produces or is capable of producing grease or smoke, because most any appliance that heats up can do that. A heat lamp can even do that though they are not typically intended to be a cooking appliance.

 

[gadfly56]

Don't really know the codes used, but if that is the wording used I see all sorts of room for confusion, and understand why some mentioned the coffee pot and microwave only don't need a hood but most every other cooking appliance does. I hope there is more to it then just whether or not it produces or is capable of producing grease or smoke, because most any appliance that heats up can do that. A heat lamp can even do that though they are not typically intended to be a cooking appliance.

The kinds of appliances any AHJ would recognize as falling under the requirement are range tops, flat plate griddles, deep fryers, tilt skillets, gyro machines, donut machines and the like. The full phrase is "grease laden vapors". Little mentioned is that these are commercial appliances, listed as such by UL or other NRTL. Technically, the residential 4-burner range/oven that a church decides to install was never meant to be subject to the requirements, but AHJ's just didn't care.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

The kinds of appliances any AHJ would recognize as falling under the requirement are range tops, flat plate griddles, deep fryers, tilt skillets, gyro machines, donut machines and the like. The full phrase is "grease laden vapors". Little mentioned is that these are commercial appliances, listed as such by UL or other NRTL. Technically, the residential 4-burner range/oven that a church decides to install was never meant to be subject to the requirements, but AHJ's just didn't care.

The phrase is no longer grease ladden vapors since they added wood burning appliances to type 1 hood which is why it now reads grease or smoke.

 

[gadfly56]

The phrase is no longer grease ladden vapors since they added wood burning appliances to type 1 hood which is why it now reads grease or smoke.

You are of course correct. It's been "smoke or grease-laden vapors" in NFPA 96 since 2008 which is the language I was trying to remember. And I know that 96 isn't adopted in NJ but it was always a useful reference.

 

[ChasMB]

Ansul Info

Ansul Info

This pretty much nails it. Ansul systems are capable of handling four (4) form "C" relays. Possible modifications are:

Ansul (and other systems) are capable of mechanically shutting down the gas. This saves one relay.
Ansul doesn't usually take care of the auto-on for the exhaust. One more relay.
If you can get the lights on a subpanel with the electric appliances and underhood outlets you can kill them all at the same time. Shunt trip or contactor, although I prefer a contactor.

I have installed many of these in the past.
Ansel Automan controllers do not have any "relays" in them. They do have Micro switches with form "C" contacts. Micro switch kits come as 1,2,3 or 4 switch kits. Most of the ones I installer we put in 2 switch kits. 1 switch is to be tied direct to the fire alarm system in the building. The 2nd switch was for the electrician to use for his contactor, IF they needed another switch for a shunt trip breaker it got added. Antho with the correct wiring 1 micro-switch can do the contactor and shunt trip. Wire common to the hot, NC side goes to the contactor, NO side to the shunt trip. Also you have to bring the micro-switch wiring outside of the Ansul controller for the splices. IF you have an electric gas valve you are also required to have a gas valve controller on it that has a reset button to re-energize the gas valve after a power failure or the system has tripped. Keeps the gas from spewing out all night from open pilot lights after the 2am power flicker.

 

[gadfly56]

I have installed many of these in the past.
Ansel Automan controllers do not have any "relays" in them. They do have Micro switches with form "C" contacts. Micro switch kits come as 1,2,3 or 4 switch kits. Most of the ones I installer we put in 2 switch kits. 1 switch is to be tied direct to the fire alarm system in the building. The 2nd switch was for the electrician to use for his contactor, IF they needed another switch for a shunt trip breaker it got added. Antho with the correct wiring 1 micro-switch can do the contactor and shunt trip. Wire common to the hot, NC side goes to the contactor, NO side to the shunt trip. Also you have to bring the micro-switch wiring outside of the Ansul controller for the splices. IF you have an electric gas valve you are also required to have a gas valve controller on it that has a reset button to re-energize the gas valve after a power failure or the system has tripped. Keeps the gas from spewing out all night from open pilot lights after the 2am power flicker.

The micro-switch is a mechanical relay. It receives an outside "signal", changes state, and can open or close an electrical circuit.

You are correct about wiring outside the controller box; this is true for every system out there.

Using a shunt trip for the shut down of electrical power is common, but I prefer a contactor.

The manual reset relay box is very important. As you point out, if there are standing pilots and you get an off-hours power blip you could otherwise wind up on the early morning news.

 

[rambojoe]

ill be up in the sierra nevadas caretaking the running of a adventure camp for kids- 6500' , completely off the grid. and the forest service wants the ansul system changed ill be recording the mean sum of notes posted here.

I think the most important thing will be having a pow wow with the ansul company, inspector, fire marshall, engineer, my boss AND the forest service. Sounds like fun, eh? If you've never worked with the USDA forest service....don't. They can make things.... fun! Thank you guys, this is the only forum on the web worth a damn.

 

[rambojoe]

crap... forgot that we turn off the generator every night at 9:30. that'll make the gas control relay/reset sorta interesting. again, you guys are awesome.

 

[gadfly56]

ill be up in the sierra nevadas caretaking the running of a adventure camp for kids- 6500' , completely off the grid. and the forest service wants the ansul system changed ill be recording the mean sum of notes posted here.

I think the most important thing will be having a pow wow with the ansul company, inspector, fire marshall, engineer, my boss AND the forest service. Sounds like fun, eh? If you've never worked with the USDA forest service....don't. They can make things.... fun! Thank you guys, this is the only forum on the web worth a damn.

Enjoy your high mountain adventure!

When you say they want the Ansul system "changed", did you mean "charged" or "replaced"? And is it an actual Ansul system or one of the others folks refer to as "Ansul" - Kidde, Badger, Buckeye, Range Guard, Amerex, Pyro-Chem, ProTex, etc? I have personal experience servicing all of them and have designed about 100 installations using Kidde or Buckeye. If the moderators don't mind you can use this thread to ask questions and I hope the answers (assuming I have them!) will be useful to other members. Or PM me if you'd rather.

 

[rambojoe]

Enjoy your high mountain adventure!

When you say they want the Ansul system "changed", did you mean "charged" or "replaced"? And is it an actual Ansul system or one of the others folks refer to as "Ansul" - Kidde, Badger, Buckeye, Range Guard, Amerex, Pyro-Chem, ProTex, etc? I have personal experience servicing all of them and have designed about 100 installations using Kidde or Buckeye. If the moderators don't mind you can use this thread to ask questions and I hope the answers (assuming I have them!) will be useful to other members. Or PM me if you'd rather.

its a old stand alone ansul if you will, just a couple of jets at the hood and a shutoff at gas. i did catch wind of one ahj saying all power in kitchen needs to be shut off. i bet the boss missunderstood! i do know ill get the control box and make life easy...no service up there but ill contact you if needed! thank you

 

[kwired]

The micro-switch is a mechanical relay. It receives an outside "signal", changes state, and can open or close an electrical circuit.

You are correct about wiring outside the controller box; this is true for every system out there.

Using a shunt trip for the shut down of electrical power is common, but I prefer a contactor.

The manual reset relay box is very important. As you point out, if there are standing pilots and you get an off-hours power blip you could otherwise wind up on the early morning news.

If a standing pilot goes out then the thermocouple (or other pilot monitor) should close the pilot valve.