Behavior of Joule Heating in few contact points terminals and arcing

[tersh]

I have mixed feelings on whether this content should be allowed. If it were a US installation, I think it doesn't belong at all. The fact it is somewhere else on the planet and to see the stuff that is pretty much standard installation there that he has posted, is kind of amusing and comes with completely different set of rules and potential legal consequences compared to making comments and giving advice to a DIY person in this country.

Don't worry. I will no longer ask any further questions. I know I have reached the limit already and I need to move on already. All these questions were just meant to scrutinize the practices of local electricians and engineers because I witnessed an electrical accident in 2015 which made me so scared. See message #55 in https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=196245&page=6&p=1979776#post1979776 It will be my last questions about practice related questions (so don't worry hbiss).

 

[hbiss]

I have mixed feelings on whether this content should be allowed. If it were a US installation, I think it doesn't belong at all. The fact it is somewhere else on the planet and to see the stuff that is pretty much standard installation there that he has posted, is kind of amusing and comes with completely different set of rules and potential legal consequences compared to making comments and giving advice to a DIY person in this country.

I think that if he stuck with talking about the different rules and the way things are done wherever he comes from I wouldn't have a problem either. Then we wouldn't have over 400 posts with every amateur question there is.

It doesn't matter where a DIY is, the potential for death, injury or property damage is the same. I wouldn't be so sure that there wouldn't be legal consequences just because the poster says he is in another country. (He gives his location as NY in his profile.)


-Hal

 

[kwired]

I think that if he stuck with talking about the different rules and the way things are done wherever he comes from I wouldn't have a problem either. Then we wouldn't have over 400 posts with every amateur question there is.

It doesn't matter where a DIY is, the potential for death, injury or property damage is the same. I wouldn't be so sure that there wouldn't be legal consequences just because the poster says he is in another country. (He gives his location as NY in his profile.)


-Hal

True, but some pictures and practices posted likely are not US installations, especially when accompanied with words that say it is typical for the area.

 

[mbrooke]

I think that if he stuck with talking about the different rules and the way things are done wherever he comes from I wouldn't have a problem either. Then we wouldn't have over 400 posts with every amateur question there is.

What is amateur about asking leakage currents? Arc flash calories? The magnetic pickup of breaker? How many US electricians even know how to size a circuit based on magnetic pickup?

It doesn't matter where a DIY is, the potential for death, injury or property damage is the same. I wouldn't be so sure that there wouldn't be legal consequences just because the poster says he is in another country. (He gives his location as NY in his profile.)



-Hal

As his system is, the potential is far greater. Withholding information is repressive and only keeps the third world in the third world which eventually becomes a problem that we all have to address down the road at some point in time.



This forum restricts DIY not because of liability, but to prevent every 2 out of 3 of threads from being "How do I hook up my ceiling fan" That and to prevent the clash between professionals and nones professionals- time and time again I've seen none professionals make very false statements (ie MWBC are illegal) only to spend 30 pages arguing and insulating professionals about why they are wrong. In this case Tersh isn't belittling anyone here. If liability was the issue, then you would not have DIY forums.

 

[tersh]

What is amateur about asking leakage currents? Arc flash calories? The magnetic pickup of breaker? How many US electricians even know how to size a circuit based on magnetic pickup?












As his system is, the potential is far greater. Withholding information is repressive and only keeps the third world in the third world which eventually becomes a problem that we all have to address down the road at some point in time.



This forum restricts DIY not because of liability, but to prevent every 2 out of 3 of threads from being "How do I hook up my ceiling fan" That and to prevent the clash between professionals and nones professionals- time and time again I've seen none professionals make very false statements (ie MWBC are illegal) only to spend 30 pages arguing and insulating professionals about why they are wrong. In this case Tersh isn't belittling anyone here. If liability was the issue, then you would not have DIY forums.

To avoid any debates between you guys. I have already asked all the basic questions and need to move on already.

My interests in electricity is because ultimately I'm interested in particle accelerators and would visit the Large Hadron Collider soon. I want to know how it is powered. Reviewing electrical engineering gave me some background for it. Theoretical physics is my main interests. The past weeks I've not been reading up on the physicists papers because of all this (for intro see https://backreaction.blogspot.com/) . That's why it's time to move on to my true interests. I'd no longer participate to avoid pushing the mods patience to the limit.

Thank you for all the help. They gave me basic background and every installations would be assigned to the contractor and expert electricians. Because of previous experiences witnessing arc flashes. I had phobia working close to it too. So don't worry about any DIY issues because it's not.

 

[mbrooke]

To avoid any debates between you guys. I have already asked all the basic questions and need to move on already.

Ask what you need. Ignore any negative pressure here. Its not fair to you or the people you serve. Let the naysayers keep on being naysayers.

My interests in electricity is because ultimately I'm interested in particle accelerators and would visit the Large Hadron Collider soon. I want to know how it is powered. Reviewing electrical engineering gave me some background for it. Theoretical physics is my main interests. The past weeks I've not been reading up on the physicists papers because of all this (for intro see https://backreaction.blogspot.com/) . That's why it's time to move on to my true interests. I'd no longer participate to avoid pushing the mods patience to the limit.

Thank you for all the help. They gave me basic background and every installations would be assigned to the contractor and expert electricians. Because of previous experiences witnessing arc flashes. I had phobia working close to it too. So don't worry about any DIY issues because it's not.

These might interest you- if I find better ones I will post more:


https://slideplayer.com/slide/7495338/


http://en-dep.web.cern.ch/en-dep/groups/el/netctrl/index.htm

 

[mbrooke]

Page 8 of the single line:


https://indico.cern.ch/event/209689...igh_Voltage_Grid_Mar2011_1137301-v7.1-Eng.pdf

 

[LarryFine]

My interests in electricity is because ultimately I'm interested in particle accelerators and would visit the Large Hadron Collider soon. I want to know how it is powered. Reviewing electrical engineering gave me some background for it. Theoretical physics is my main interests.

Sheldon Cooper!

 

[romex jockey]

Ask what you need. Ignore any negative pressure here. Its not fair to you or the people you serve. Let the naysayers keep on being naysayers.

You mean the santimonious pack mentality that took a certain former 'pro' forum that shall remain nameless into such dismal depths that it lost 1/2 it's mods, and any viable brains?

yeah, let's ignore that....:rant:

~S~

 

[tersh]

You mean the santimonious pack mentality that took a certain former 'pro' forum that shall remain nameless into such dismal depths that it lost 1/2 it's mods, and any viable brains?

yeah, let's ignore that....:rant:

~S~

DIY is a western experience? I'm surprised that in the US even car owners change their brake pads by themselves. In the Philippines. 100% of car owners always bring the car to the repair shops. Also almost 100% of home owners always call electricians for any problems. They don't do it by themselves. I wonder if it's because our labor is so cheap here or average westerners just know more.

Our electrician is $10 to $20 per day. How about in the US?

Also I think liability is big issues. What if you advise someone and he get electrocuted? The forum can be sued? This is why negative pressure is normal. People don't want liability. And I understand that.

Whatever. I won't ask for advice about installations because I'd just get the best electricians available. Since we don't have neutral or grounding to learn and worry. Our electricians boast of connecting wires live. If you ask any local contractors. They will always tell you their electricians are so get used to connecting wires live. Lol. But I won't get them after actually witnessing micro arc flash.

 

[ptonsparky]

Finding someone to work for $10 per hour is an insult and most likely impossible. I wouldn’t even consider it as a starting wage for unskilled labor.

 

[tersh]

Finding someone to work for $10 per hour is an insult and most likely impossible. I wouldn’t even consider it as a starting wage for unskilled labor.

In the Philippines. The $10 is per day (whole day) salary. Not per hour. Per hour is $1.


Only the contractors earn a lot of money. They hire lowly paid electricians and construction workers (who earn even less than $10 a day). The electricians I know had salary of $10 or less per whole day for their entire lives.

That's a fact of life in the Philippines.

Btw. I'm not really a Filipino. My parents are from china, so I'm a Chinese who was born in the Philippines.

Soon China will conquer the world. Lol. There is currently a big trade war between China and US.

I don't go to China often. Who is the counterpart of Mike Holt training school there?

 

[ptonsparky]

In the Philippines. The $10 is per day (whole day) salary. Not per hour. Per hour is $1.

Yes, I understood 'per day'.

 

[romex jockey]

DIY is a western experience? .

DIY is a national phenomenon propagated by big box stores, DIY TV shows, along with the lions share of manufacturers that solicit them .

the fact is, it's so ingrained in our cultural gestalt , that any true metric for 'pro' has summarilly being dumbed down along with it.

Consider the electrical trade alone, maybe 1/2 to 2/3rds of states have licensure ,and out of that the standards differ.......i started a thread a while back over some southern state's response to 'lack of pro's' loosening standards.

Right now, there's more of a market for a failed apprentice pursuing work via maintenance companies, than a licensed entity could assume .....all due to legislative DIY loopholes

The fact is, our entire NEC is infiltrated by manufactures waving magic widgets ,along with DIY stats validating CMP knee jerk bureaucracy

We're a dying profession ,all due to the system we exist in , not it's contingent......i've had my say about this multiple times in multiple venues on this soul sucking device, which is why i simply refuse to play along with this pack mentality race to the bottom.

~RJ~

 

[tersh]

Yes, I understood 'per day'.

Our laborers, carpenters, masons, electricians all have that salary. And because we don't have a college degree or course in structural engineering but mostly only software based (like civil engineers using compared based ETABS or STAADS). I had to spend more than a year learning how to manually compute each structural member frame of a building and learnt seismic design. Just to verify if the local structural designer plan was correct. Then making sure the laborers, mason, steel men done it right. They mostly don't follow the plans. Some steal the rebars. Well. I was so strict with them checking to the last detail that they mostly disliked me. Lol. That was in the past. I have moved on already on structural design. Now with verification of basic electrical works. I'm soon moving on already. This is the problem with Philippines. Cost cutting is the middle name. Quality of works is low. Unless those few rare carpenters, electricians trained in middle east or working in other countries. They are more skilled. Or rather, all the skilled workers are in other countries leaving the most inept workers behind. And because fees are so low. No home owners are into DIY thing. It's unheard of in our country.

 

[kwired]

DIY is a western experience? I'm surprised that in the US even car owners change their brake pads by themselves. In the Philippines. 100% of car owners always bring the car to the repair shops. Also almost 100% of home owners always call electricians for any problems. They don't do it by themselves. I wonder if it's because our labor is so cheap here or average westerners just know more.

Our electrician is $10 to $20 per day. How about in the US?

Also I think liability is big issues. What if you advise someone and he get electrocuted? The forum can be sued? This is why negative pressure is normal. People don't want liability. And I understand that.

Whatever. I won't ask for advice about installations because I'd just get the best electricians available. Since we don't have neutral or grounding to learn and worry. Our electricians boast of connecting wires live. If you ask any local contractors. They will always tell you their electricians are so get used to connecting wires live. Lol. But I won't get them after actually witnessing micro arc flash.

To help cover overhead expenses, most any trade is going to charge at least $75 to $150 minimum charge for their services, especially a trade that has to come to your place to do what they do.

DIY is a national phenomenon propagated by big box stores, DIY TV shows, along with the lions share of manufacturers that solicit them .

the fact is, it's so ingrained in our cultural gestalt , that any true metric for 'pro' has summarilly being dumbed down along with it.

Consider the electrical trade alone, maybe 1/2 to 2/3rds of states have licensure ,and out of that the standards differ.......i started a thread a while back over some southern state's response to 'lack of pro's' loosening standards.

Right now, there's more of a market for a failed apprentice pursuing work via maintenance companies, than a licensed entity could assume .....all due to legislative DIY loopholes

The fact is, our entire NEC is infiltrated by manufactures waving magic widgets ,along with DIY stats validating CMP knee jerk bureaucracy

We're a dying profession ,all due to the system we exist in , not it's contingent......i've had my say about this multiple times in multiple venues on this soul sucking device, which is why i simply refuse to play along with this pack mentality race to the bottom.

~RJ~

I think DIY started long before big box stores, they maybe helped broaden it again though.

After the Louisiana purchase and people started migrating west - there were no tradesmen when they arrived they had to do everything with who they had and what they brought or could gather. I suppose original settlers to the east coast had it somewhat similar, but they came in larger groups and maybe had more variety of tradesmen in the groups.

 

[peter d]

You mean the santimonious pack mentality that took a certain former 'pro' forum that shall remain nameless into such dismal depths that it lost 1/2 it's mods, and any viable brains?

yeah, let's ignore that....:rant:

~S~

Oh, you mean Electrician Talk, which is still thriving and doing quite well actually. :thumbsup: That's where the real electricians go. :happyyes:

 

[mbrooke]

You mean the santimonious pack mentality that took a certain former 'pro' forum that shall remain nameless into such dismal depths that it lost 1/2 it's mods, and any viable brains?

yeah, let's ignore that....:rant:

~S~

I think if it ever got that bad here, the mods would step. They are good at keep profanity at bay.

 

[mbrooke]

DIY is a western experience? I'm surprised that in the US even car owners change their brake pads by themselves. In the Philippines. 100% of car owners always bring the car to the repair shops. Also almost 100% of home owners always call electricians for any problems. They don't do it by themselves. I wonder if it's because our labor is so cheap here or average westerners just know more.

Our electrician is $10 to $20 per day. How about in the US?

Its in the hundreds.

Also I think liability is big issues. What if you advise someone and he get electrocuted? The forum can be sued? This is why negative pressure is normal. People don't want liability. And I understand that.

Forum can not be sued from my understanding.

Whatever. I won't ask for advice about installations because I'd just get the best electricians available. Since we don't have neutral or grounding to learn and worry. Our electricians boast of connecting wires live. If you ask any local contractors. They will always tell you their electricians are so get used to connecting wires live. Lol. But I won't get them after actually witnessing micro arc flash.

I think at this point you are the best considering you know more then most Philippine electricians :happyyes::happyyes::happyyes:

 

[mbrooke]

DIY is a western experience? I'm surprised that in the US even car owners change their brake pads by themselves. In the Philippines. 100% of car owners always bring the car to the repair shops. Also almost 100% of home owners always call electricians for any problems. They don't do it by themselves. I wonder if it's because our labor is so cheap here or average westerners just know more.

Tersh, here is an example of American DIY:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ro7Tc2nFI


Great vid btw.