Behavior of Joule Heating in few contact points terminals and arcing

[hbiss]

Yeah, she's kinda cute. That's about it.

-Hal

 

[tersh]

Its in the hundreds.






Forum can not be sued from my understanding.





I think at this point you are the best considering you know more then most Philippine electricians :happyyes::happyyes::happyyes:

I spent 6 years in college taking up electronics engineering degree. Some of my school mates went to work in the US, one with NASA. But I didn't continue with the profession because halfway I got interested in medical. In electronics. We had AC subjects but we focused mostly on DC. So learning about electrical now is just kinda justifying spending 6 years in college and wasting those years and not applying it afterwards.

Most of Philippines electricians didn't even finish high school. They are mostly from the poorest section of society. They don't have special electrical training before becoming electricians. This is especially so as we don't use neutral nor ground and no polarity. So to become electricians here. One must simply know how to splice wires and use electrical tapes. We don't use wire nuts here. They earn $10 a day. I know some electricians who don't have work half of the months so it's like they earn $10 a day for half month only.

Tersh, here is an example of American DIY:



​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ro7Tc2nFI

Great vid btw.​

In the Philippines, this is unheard of. We hire domestic helpers to help us do chores like sweeping floors, cooking food, washing utensils. Their salary is $100 a month stay over. We have a domestic helper now at house like that. All my relatives and friends have domestic helpers. Have you heard of domestic helpers being abused or raped in the middle east? Philippines is so poor, that's why half the population can become like that.

So you can't find even one single lady doing the above youtube thing when they don't even wash clothes. Lol.

 

[hbiss]

Most of Philippines electricians didn't even finish high school. They are mostly from the poorest section of society. They don't have special electrical training before becoming electricians.

That's quickly what it's becoming in this country. US kids today don't want anything to do with manual trades, they all want to go to college thinking that it will entitle them to an easy job at $100,000 a year when they graduate. So more and more, the construction trades are performed by immigrants, many illegal who are paid sub par wages with little formal training. Our society stigmatizes those who don't go to college by making them feel like losers. High schools aren't what they used to be here either. When you graduated from HS you were well equipped for life, getting a meaningful job or to continue on to college. But the schools today only aim to get the kids ready for college where they will learn how to be responsible adults. So in that respect, not finishing college today can be considered not finishing HS years ago.

-Hal

 

[GeorgeB]

Right now, there's more of a market for a failed apprentice pursuing work ...
~RJ~

It's not limited to that level if DIY ....

I have an electrical engineering degree, but never sat for the EIT or PE ... and feel that I fit the same criteria. I've been called an engineer by some employers, but respect those who did the real thing too much to grant myself that title. I'm nothing more than a (pretty good, IMO) technician in the big picture.

As with the trunk slammers, I'm a generalist, jack-of-all-trades, master of none. That doesn't distract from my value; I _DO_ know what not to do. I worry about those who _KNOW_ they have all of the answers but who don't really. I make mistakes and try to learn from them; too many don't make mistakes (or admit to them).

 

[hbiss]

... I _DO_ know what not to do. I worry about those who _KNOW_ they have all of the answers but who don't really. I make mistakes and try to learn from them; too many don't make mistakes (or admit to them).

Good point. If you read the comments under that video, few say that anyone should care if the work was done properly and that's par for most DIYs. The girl herself though actually says that if a qualified EC was willing to show her where she went wrong she would be willing to learn. That's a good quality.

-Hal

 

[tersh]

Think in some instances you will find that they are actually overtightening if not using a torque wrench. This mostly applies to larger lugs like on a 200 amp connector. For your 30 amp and smaller connections that are typically being made with a screwdriver, you are more likely to find many of them are not quite as tight as recommended torque. A breaker that recommends 20 in-lb, about makes you think you are goint to break your wrist if you get that much out of a typical screwdriver one might use. Get a bigger handle or some other leverage and it is easy to overtighten it though.

Thanks to those who recommended the alumiconn and torque screwdrivers. They are coming on Friday.

The Capri Tools has range of only 10-50 lb-in. Someone of your commented that even if the main breaker had torque of 55 lb-in. The 10-50 lb-in at maximum will work right? At least making it 50 lbs-in is better than just manually turning a normal screwdriver. I couldn't find 10-70 lb-in good quality torque screwdriver at amazon (it's eerie that Amazon doesn't have an equal competitor, isn't it. I started ordering books from them 20 years ago.. now everything from Siemens Load Centers, Siemens GFCI breakers to these. No wonder the owner is the richest man in the world now).

Earlier I saw this Cedore professional torque screwdriver with range of 0.08 to 9 N.M (about )(about 1 to 80 lbs-in) https://www.gedore-torque.com/torque-screwdrivers/ It's twice the price of the capri above.

But since we are using American electrical products. Units of Lb-in is more at home. Also when I hired electrician with big muscles. I don't want this scenario to occur where a defective Cedore torque screwdriver set at 55 lb-in is actually doing a 80 lb-in thing and damage the lugs for good. At least with the 10-50 lb-in Capri, the maximum is at 50 lb-in (remember there is 6% error) so if it gets defective someday. It bottom out at 50 lb-in only. However, if someone else can convince me I need exactly 55 lb-in to tighten the main breaker. Then I need to find another one. The 10-50 lbs-in Capri would then be used just to tighten the 20-30A breakers. We don't have any stores with torque screwdrivers in the country because none used them. So I'll be first ones to use them. Hope they are as good as they sound. Finally I'll know what it's like to torque at required 20 lb-in for regular breakers.

 

[mbrooke]

Good point. If you read the comments under that video, few say that anyone should care if the work was done properly and that's par for most DIYs. The girl herself though actually says that if a qualified EC was willing to show her where she went wrong she would be willing to learn. That's a good quality.

-Hal

It is good quality for DIY, thats for sure.

But lets gets get real. If white can be re-identified as hot coming out of a cable assembly, whats wrong with doing it with bare THHN? Yes I know your not supposed to, but I've seen it done even by professionals, most of whom don't re-identify NM and MC either.

 

[mbrooke]

I spent 6 years in college taking up electronics engineering degree. Some of my school mates went to work in the US, one with NASA. But I didn't continue with the profession because halfway I got interested in medical. In electronics. We had AC subjects but we focused mostly on DC. So learning about electrical now is just kinda justifying spending 6 years in college and wasting those years and not applying it afterwards.

I'm going to say you are gifted, high IQ, and don't realize it. I've seen nothing unintelligent from you, on the contrary you are better at absorbing knowledge, making connections and asking relevant questions then I am.

 

[LarryFine]

But lets gets get real. If white can be re-identified as hot coming out of a cable assembly, whats wrong with doing it with bare THHN?

Because there is no excuse for using the "wrong" color when installing individual conductors, unlike cable assemblies where the rules make allowances for the way cable assemblies are manufactured.

Unless, of course, you already do understand this, in which case, I'll simply say, "never mind." I also presume you meant individual conductors, and not actual "bare" THHN (which wouldn't really be THHN, would it?)

 

[mbrooke]

Because there is no excuse for using the "wrong" color when installing individual conductors, unlike cable assemblies where the rules make allowances for the way cable assemblies are manufactured.

What risk to human life and property exists with a 600 volt rated conductor being white? What if I have a 150 foot run going from 120 to 240?

Unless, of course, you already do understand this, in which case, I'll simply say, "never mind." I also presume you meant individual conductors, and not actual "bare" THHN (which wouldn't really be THHN, would it?)

Bare as in not originating from a cable assembly.

 

[LarryFine]

What risk to human life and property exists with a 600 volt rated conductor being white?

As a generalized question, you could ak the same thing about half of the NEC. Specifically, it has to do with relying on a white conductor being grounded, and anything else (excluding green) being energized.

"What risk to human life and property exists" if every conductor was black?

What if I have a 150 foot run going from 120 to 240?

See above comment. To answer you, yes, the white should be re-identified.

A water heater or AC compressor doesn't care what colors the wires are, but a novice might presume they're only 120v because there's only white and black.

 

[hbiss]

It is good quality for DIY, thats for sure.

But lets gets get real. If white can be re-identified as hot coming out of a cable assembly, whats wrong with doing it with bare THHN? Yes I know your not supposed to, but I've seen it done even by professionals, most of whom don't re-identify NM and MC either.

If we are going to critique her work, she should just have purchased red or more black to begin with. This isn't old work where you are stuck with the white. But that's the least of the problems. Where's the glue? Why the metallic handy box that requires a ground and is probably overloaded? How did she handle the wiring from the back of the LB to the KO in the panel? Betcha the conductors just run out in the wall and down through the KO. No plates on the receptacles.

I might agree that this is slightly better than most DIY, one look and you still will see who did it right away.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

What risk to human life and property exists with a 600 volt rated conductor being white?

When someone assumes the white is a neutral when it really has 120V to ground on it.

-Hal

 

[mbrooke]

As a generalized question, you could ak the same thing about half of the NEC. Specifically, it has to do with relying on a white conductor being grounded, and anything else (excluding green) being energized.

Never assume a white is grounded or not energized, because if it breaks anywhere in the circuit that goes out the window. Hence the 600 volt insulation mandate in the NEC for neutral conductors.

"What risk to human life and property exists" if every conductor was black?

Becomes more difficult for an electrician to identify the right conductor for ground. Wiring hundreds of devices in building increases the chance for a live hitting the ground screw.

See above comment. To answer you, yes, the white should be re-identified.

A water heater or AC compressor doesn't care what colors the wires are, but a novice might presume they're only 120v because there's only white and black.

Then said novice should not be doing electrical.

When someone assumes the white is a neutral when it really has 120V to ground on it.

-Hal

Then you should not be doing electrical work IMO. Any electrician knows that when they see white, there is a possibility its used for 240.

 

[tersh]

I'm going to say you are gifted, high IQ, and don't realize it. I've seen nothing unintelligent from you, on the contrary you are better at absorbing knowledge, making connections and asking relevant questions then I am.

I made wrong career choices. When I found out in college no electronics can equal the nano size of cells and the brain. I became interested in medicine. But too late to transfer. So I just slept my way through college. Later when I found out our body has connection to physics beyond the standard model via qualia which has nonphysical source (in the Philippines we treat victims of possession at will and can even create it at will). Then i became interested in physics. But it's too late to get a degree of it (my dream was to get Ph.D in physics). Whatever, If you will read Sabine backlog. You will keep hearing about her saying physics was lost. No major discovery since the Higgs and all the predicted particles don't come true (the LHC Nightmare Scenerio has Come True). See http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-lhc-nightmare-scenario-has-come-true.html

She has even written a book called "Lost in Math". Also some physicists were transferring to the finance or banking division where things are more certain. Some may even go into electrical engineering which is definite. I think the new physics involves the understanding of our very qualia and extensions to it. This is what I'll focus on in months and years ahead. This is why I have to move on from all this electrical thing now. Thanks so much for all your help and nice things to say to encourage amidst all the darkness in the world.

 

[LarryFine]

Never assume a white is grounded or not energized, because if it breaks anywhere in the circuit that goes out the window. Hence the 600 volt insulation mandate in the NEC for neutral conductors.

Becomes more difficult for an electrician to identify the right conductor for ground. Wiring hundreds of devices in building increases the chance for a live hitting the ground screw.

Then said novice should not be doing electrical.

Then you should not be doing electrical work IMO. Any electrician knows that when they see white, there is a possibility its used for 240.

The questions and comments were mainly rhetorical.

Of course, we seasoned professionals know better than to make presumptions.

 

[mbrooke]

I made wrong career choices. When I found out in college no electronics can equal the nano size of cells and the brain. I became interested in medicine. But too late to transfer. So I just slept my way through college. Later when I found out our body has connection to physics beyond the standard model via qualia which has nonphysical source (in the Philippines we treat victims of possession at will and can even create it at will). Then i became interested in physics. But it's too late to get a degree of it (my dream was to get Ph.D in physics). Whatever, If you will read Sabine backlog. You will keep hearing about her saying physics was lost. No major discovery since the Higgs and all the predicted particles don't come true (the LHC Nightmare Scenerio has Come True). See http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-lhc-nightmare-scenario-has-come-true.html

Yahhh, no major discovery because people like you are not given a fair chance. College should have seen your gifts and done anything everything to progress them instead of punishing you.


Its not your fault, its the system.

She has even written a book called "Lost in Math". Also some physicists were transferring to the finance or banking division where things are more certain. Some may even go into electrical engineering which is definite. I think the new physics involves the understanding of our very qualia and extensions to it. This is what I'll focus on in months and years ahead. This is why I have to move on from all this electrical thing now. Thanks so much for all your help and nice things to say to encourage amidst all the darkness in the world.

[/QUOTE]

Well, where ever you go, you will progress it by leaps and bounds. :happyyes::happyyes::happyyes:

 

[mbrooke]

The questions and comments were mainly rhetorical.

Of course, we seasoned professionals know better than to make presumptions.

As do many HOs- I mean how many water heaters, clothes dryers, baseboards, well pumps, cooktops, ect do not have the white identified in the branch circuit? How many switch legs have no tape?

 

[tersh]

Yahhh, no major discovery because people like you are not given a fair chance. College should have seen your gifts and done anything everything to progress them instead of punishing you.


Its not your fault, its the system.


Well, where ever you go, you will progress it by leaps and bounds. :happyyes::happyyes::happyyes:

It's not just me. I mean. Over the years I have literally met hundreds of paranormal subjects. The system where we can fix qualia has brand name called "Pranic Healing" (google it and you will know what I mean). But what I want to do is develop a complete science of it while eliminating all the hocus focus or junk science that comes with it. It's a goal that needs the cooperation of scientists. That's why my task ahead is just to encourage where research is needed. I know some will say I was deluded. But I wish I were. But it's not as simple as saying it. In this world. We really need the advance science that need to come soon. And humanity as a whole will progress by leaps and bounds if we can at least get a working theory that can encourage all the rest to follow. Bottomline is, it should be about hard data and theory that can be tested.

Sorry for the off topic. Let's not talk about it now. But about electrical things. Lol. Well Have you notice that General Electric breakers depend so much on casing for alignment. I mean if you press the magnetic strip. It won't trip because the lever is not straight (needs casing to push it down and make it straight). Also the strip has separate spring while others are integrated. In Westinghouse and Siemens breakers. You can make it trip by pushing the magnetic strip without any casing cover. I spent 2 hours just analyzing the General Electric breakers. It's important because 90% of our breakers in our country are all General Electric. In terms of breaking down. Do you think Siemens or GE are more robust? I know it's the overall package that counts. Which do you think is more resistant to breakdown?

 

[Sahib]

Thanks to those who recommended the alumiconn and torque screwdrivers. They are coming on Friday.

Unless there is evidence of loose connection, you should not re-tighten/re-torque aluminium/copper conductor connections.