Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

[LarryFine]

I hold the belief that it is just as illegal to fail a compliant install as it is to pass one that is non-compliant; that the requirements are as binding on the inspector as they are on the contractor.

The phrase "shall be permitted" is an example of an NEC statement that is directed toward the inspector. It's saying that he cannot fail an installation for containing that particular characteristic.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I hold the belief that it is just as illegal to fail a compliant install as it is to pass one that is non-compliant; that the requirements are as binding on the inspector as they are on the contractor.

The phrase "shall be permitted" is an example of an NEC statement that is directed toward the inspector. It's saying that he cannot fail an installation for containing that particular characteristic.

A good post, and another reason why I believe it is the responsibility of an inspector to know more about the code requirements and the general provisions (such as Art 90) of the code, than the installers/contractors, etc...

Hence an inspector should be required to pass more stringent testing and have more hours of CEUs than others.
If he/she does not like it, then they do not have to become inspectors...seems pretty simple, no?

 

[dana1028]

Bob

Please tell me how you know that shower valve(s) are bonded? Do you have a spec.?

No fixtures have to be present at the rough or final for an electrical inspection. We only look at the 'codes' that apply to us.

Specs? Where do you come up with that? The NEC Handbook specifically addresses this by stating "hot and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical connections."

No fixutres at rough? Of course not, but the shower valves sure are installed at rough and you can certainly see the valve is a solid cast housing that is mechanically connected to hot and cold. That is all that is required to meet the code requirement.

As Bob has indicated: 1. How can you not visually see the mechanical connection [at rough], 2. How can you demand more than the code requires?

I think your argument and everyone's confusion lies in these 2 questions.

Your argument seems to boil down to: The code accepts a mechanical connection as meeting bonding requirements and you do not.

Or perhaps, you have decided that metal water pipes screwed into a solid metal housing [valve] do not in fact equal a mechanical connection [even though the NEC accepts screwed connections].

 

[electricmanscott]

I don't even want to part of this but the handbook commentary referred to by the lone disenter many pages ago seemingly to be used in his favor actually validates his oponents views. Why He can't see this is beyond me.

Show me ONE metalic connection between the hot and cold (ex shower valve) and the bonding is complete.

It really is that simple.


Good day!

 

[iwire]

I don't even want to part of this but...

...... your as goofed up as the rest of us.:grin:

 

[3-D]

Great discussion! Just curious, I've been out of the trade for 15 years, just went back and got my license again. I did mostly commercial in the past, but occasionally did houses. I know in the 80s, in Washington State, we had to bond the hot and cold. Curious, do we still have to in Washington, or has that been done away with? Most of the houses I've seen in my area are using plastic pipe throughout.

 

[M. D.]

here you go Jim
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=296-46B-250

090 Bonding.

(6) Metallic stubs or valves used in nonmetallic plumbing systems are not required to be bonded to the electrical system unless required by an electrical equipment manufacturer's instructions.

(7) Hot and cold water plumbing lines are not required to be bonded together if, at the time of inspection, the inspector can determine the lines are mechanically and electrically joined by one or more metallic mixing valves.

 

[3-D]

(7) Hot and cold water plumbing lines are not required to be bonded together if, at the time of inspection, the inspector can determine the lines are mechanically and electrically joined by one or more metallic mixing valves.

Oh oh, here we go again::grin:
Thanks for the info, I haven't had a chance to do a house again yet, and after reading this thread it became a definite point of interest.
Also, in every house I've ever done (that's not that many) the mixing valves in the showers were already installed by the electrical rough-in inspection.

 

[jxofaltrds]

From the loner dissenter. Please address me by name and do not refer to me in the 3rd person.

This forum is to discuss electrical issues in a professional manner.

In this picture of metal water piping what are the two piping systems shown? Remember this is not a picture of other metal piping.
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/05fjohnston_fig9_323160853.jpg

Again opinion: ?Because many plumbing fixtures use nonmetallic components, bonding both the hot and cold piping systems helps ensure that both are electrically continuous.?

But let?s stay with just the code(s).

Some may say that other codes do not apply but when you drill holes in wood members do you stay in the required zones? Yes you do. Because of the building code.


From the Plumbing Code.

SECTION 601 GENERAL

601.1 Scope.

This chapter shall govern the materials, design and installation of water supply systems, both hot and cold, for utilization in connection with human occupancy and habitation and shall govern the installation of individual water supply systems.

My comment: Note that the hot and cold are separate systems.

604.2 System interconnection.

At the points of interconnection between the hot and cold water supply piping systems and the individual fixtures, appliances or devices, provisions shall be made to prevent flow between such piping systems.

My comment: Again, referred to as separate systems.

As an electrician I am required to bond metal water piping system(s) 250.104(A)(1). And I am required to know how other codes effect my trade.

424.3 Individual shower valves.

Individual shower and tub-shower combination valves shall be balanced-pressure, thermostatic or combination balanced-pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125 *****.

My comment: I see nowhere that they are to be used for bonding.

?An effective ground-fault current path is an ?intentionally constructed, permanent, low-impedance . . . path designed and intended to carry ground-fault current and facilitate the operation of the overcurrent protective device.?

Now back to opinions:
Is this author also ill-informed? ODE is a staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc.

?Again both the hot and the cold water pipe must be bonded to the separately derived system.?

http://www.ecmag.com/index.cfm?fa=article&articleID=5208

I for one do not wish to argue against this information in a court of law.

 

[electricmanscott]

Ok Mike, I see you are really trying here but you are stretching this beyond anything that might resemble an attempt at being reasonable.

First Mike, that graphic is just silly. It shows nothing.

Second Mike, just because an author in a magazine says something does not mean it's true but if we are going to let him decide I'll just have to take his word.

Most electricians automatically bond the cold water line but do not ensure that the cold and the hot water lines are metallically interconnected through mixing valves in the plumbing fixtures. Since Section 250.104(A) requires all water-piping systems to be bonded back to the service, and hot or cold water lines are not specifically mentioned, both hot and cold water lines must be bonded and connected back to the building service. The bonding jumper from the cold to the hot water piping system must be sized in accordance with Section and Table 250.66

I might have said this already but for the sake of continuity I'll say it again. There is no specific requirement in the NEC that requires you to install a bonding jumper between hot and cold water piping.

Wave the white flag already.

 

[al hildenbrand]

In this picture of metal water piping what are the two piping systems shown? Remember this is not a picture of other metal piping.

Mike Parks, the two water pipe systems are not labeled. No information is given in the photo. What does any associated text say? What is a source link?

SECTION 601 GENERAL
604.2 System interconnection.

At the points of interconnection between the hot and cold water supply piping systems and the individual fixtures, appliances or devices, provisions shall be made to prevent flow between such piping systems.

My comment: Again, referred to as separate systems.

As an electrician I am required to bond metal water piping system(s) 250.104(A)(1).

Mike Parks, the NEC only states "metal water piping" . . . NOT "metal hot water piping AND metal cold water piping".

And I am required to know how other codes effect my trade.

Pike Parks, please cite the NEC section for that.

424.3 Individual shower valves.

Individual shower and tub-shower combination valves shall be balanced-pressure, thermostatic or combination balanced-pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125 *****.

My comment: I see nowhere that they are to be used for bonding.

“An effective ground-fault current path is an “intentionally constructed, permanent, low-impedance . . . path designed and intended to carry ground-fault current and facilitate the operation of the overcurrent protective device.”

Now back to opinions:
Is this author also ill-informed?

Mike Parks, Mark Ode states in the article you cite:

Mark Ode from this article

A simple change in construction and plumbing methods over a period of years may have resulted in many water-piping systems being inadequately bonded to the electrical system.
. . . .
Most water faucets were dual mixing valves constructed from a single piece of brass or copper (or other metal) with a chrome or gold-finish exterior. This direct metal-to-metal connection from the cold to hot water lines resulted in a metal-to-metal connection back to the water heater.

It's very clear to me that Mark Ode is starting from the all-metal water piping system having electrical continuity established by the metal valve bodies in it.

ODE is a staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc.

“Again both the hot and the cold water pipe must be bonded to the separately derived system.”

http://www.ecmag.com/index.cfm?fa=article&articleID=5208

Mike Parks, your quote of Mark Ode is out of context, in my opinion. The article is reasonably nuanced to include metal valve bodies that, by their presence establish electrical continuity between the metal water pipes that are connected to the valve body.

Mike Parks, in my opinion, your focusing on the single sentence of Mark Ode's article, in the manner you have is wrong.

Mark Ode's last two sentences of this article

Again both the hot and the cold water pipe must be bonded to the separately derived system.

Next time you install an electrical system, be sure to check both the hot and cold water lines to ensure proper bonding of the water piping system to the service.

That is Mark Ode's conclusion and point of the article. Check. As other's have stated, I, as the electrician can do that with a continuity check between somewhere on the hot pipe and somewhere on the cold pipe of the intact metal water piping system of a dwelling. If I have more than one metal water piping system (hard to imagine in a simple dwelling) then the plural "system(s)" applies.

 

[jwelectric]

An old four story ware house was converted to apartments. Each unit was supplied with water by copper water pipes that were fed from a two inch copper water main in the basement. The copper is continuous from the main shut off valve in the basement through out the building.

Each unit was supplied with a one hundred amp distribution panel from the main service which was also located in the basement. The service is supplied with four sets of 250 kcmil copper conductors.

I have read some pretty silly post on this forum and have made dozens of them myself in my own little sick humorous attitude that I have but, I just can?t wait to read the answer to this question.

Does this mean that in each of the sixteen units of this building would require a 2/0 copper bond between the hot and cold water pipes?

 

[3-D]

As per 250.104 (A) (3) as I see it, each unit is supplied by a 100 amp main- using #3 from 310.16
250.66 tells me that I would need a #8 copper bonding wire to the water pipe in each unit, ran from the panel of that unit.

 

[hurk27]

I would not think so but?

 

[3-D]

In 250.104 (A) (2) it isays where the metal water piping system for the individual occupancies is metallically isolated from all other occupancies by use of nonmetallic piping.
Mike W. example says "Each unit was supplied with water by copper water pipes that were fed from a two inch copper water main in the basement. The copper is continuous from the main shut off valve in the basement through out the building.'

Am I not reading this wrong?

 

[hurk27]

In 250.104 (A) (2) it isays where the metal water piping system for the individual occupancies is metallically isolated from all other occupancies by use of nonmetallic piping.
Mike W. example says "Each unit was supplied with water by copper water pipes that were fed from a two inch copper water main in the basement. The copper is continuous from the main shut off valve in the basement through out the building.'

Am I not reading this wrong?

Oh no you have it right IMO, bring the water bond to the service and bond it one time.
and if the water pipe meats the requirment of being an electrode then bonding it at the service is a requirment, not an option. 250.24(A)(1)

 

[jxofaltrds]

First thank you for the respect. Mike will do.

"And I am required to know how other codes effect my trade." "Mike Parks, please cite the NEC section for that. When I drill a hole in a microlam I'll tell the building inspector it is not in the NEC. Come on.

"Mike Parks, the NEC only states "metal water piping" . . . NOT "metal hot water piping AND metal cold water piping". "

My comments: 250.104(A)(1) Says " Metal water piping system(s)".
So what is meant by systems? Not metal other piping.

Since the NEC does not define metal water piping system(s) I must use the plumbing code's explanation. See 101.2 below.

I do not believe that plumbing 'fixtures' meet the requirements of 250.4(A)(4 &5 ) Can you 'prove', something in writing from a manf., that a fixture is capable of these requirements? I doubt it.

Plumbing fittings are part of the piping system. So do not try that arguement.

I know that your state probably has its own building code but let me use what is in Ohio.

101.2 Scope. The provisions of the "Ohio Building Code," the "Ohio Mechanical Code," and the "Ohio Plumbing Code" shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal and demolition of every building or structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures.

My comment: It does not say that electricians can ignore the building code.

101.4 Referenced codes. The other codes listed in Sections 101.4.1 to 101.4.7 and referenced elsewhere in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference.

My comment: The NEC is a referenced code. Not the only one that applies.

SECTION 102 APPLICABILITY AND JURISDICTIONAL AUTHORITY

102.1 General. Where, in any specific case, different sections of this code specify different materials, methods of construction or other requirements, the most restrictive shall govern. Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall be applicable.

102.5 Referenced codes and standards. ******The codes and standards referenced in the building, mechanical, and plumbing codes shall be considered part of the requirements of these codes as though the text were printed in this code, to the prescribed extent of each such reference. Where differences occur between provisions of these codes and the referenced standards, the provisions of these codes shall apply.

Plumbing code:
118.3 Materials, products and assembly directories.

Table 118.3 lists directories for materials, products and assemblies accepted for specified performances. http://publicecodes.citation.com/st...b9v07_1_sec018_par023.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

Do fixtures meet these?

EDIT: I have seen no rebuttal of the plumbing code reference.

 

[jwelectric]

My comments: 250.104(A)(1) Says " Metal water piping system(s)".

So what is meant by systems? Not metal other piping.

By the words of the Code Making Panel a metal water piping system would be a system that has 100% metal water piping. The inclusion of one small piece of nonmetallic pipe or fitting would send the situation to 250.104(B)
If for what ever reason I can?t read continuity from the point of entry to the building to the farthest end of the water pipe then I do no bonding using Table 250.66. I do not bond hot to cold. They both are potable water and part of the same potable water system.
I do not try to make the metal pipes of a building electrically continuous. This requirement was removed from the code the same year that the allowance to land an equipment grounding conductor to the closest metal water pipe was removed.

EDIT: I have seen no rebuttal of the plumbing code reference.

I could care less what is written in any of the other codes. The state does not test me on one word of the other codes when issuing me a license. I am only required to pass a test that comes from the NEC and nothing from the other codes.

The one thing I love more that anything is for some inspector to start quoting another codes when doing my inspection. I do not go to his/her director. I do not go to the county or city. I go straight to the ?Q? board to file a compliant. Here in NC the only code that can be used for an electrical inspection is the adopted electrical code.

What would be the outcome should you do an electrical inspection in a new house and during the rough-in or final you didn?t see any smoke alarms? Would you turn down the electrical inspection? What code section would you quote? It is a building issue not an electrical issue.

I know that the state of Ohio had several problems trying to choose which code that was going to be used for enforcement but I don?t remember anything about them using the plumbing code instead of the electrical code for electrical inspections. Did I miss something there?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike W.

"By the words of the Code Making Panel a metal water piping system would be a system that has 100% metal water piping. The inclusion of one small piece of nonmetallic pipe or fitting would send the situation to 250.104(B)"

This is an opinion. I have to read what is in the code.

I would only use the NEC for an electrical inspection.

"I could care less what is written in any of the other codes. The state does not test me on one word of the other codes when issuing me a license. I am only required to pass a test that comes from the NEC and nothing from the other codes."

Read 90.1(C) BTW I am NOT saying that you are untrained. It just says that this is not an instruction manual. It contains rules reguarding electrical connections.

"What would be the outcome should you do an electrical inspection in a new house and during the rough-in or final you didn?t see any smoke alarms? Would you turn down the electrical inspection? What code section would you quote? It is a building issue not an electrical issue."

So we agree that other codes are use by an electrician. And yes I could turn you down for no smokes. Because you are not ready for an electrical inspection. I am required to inspect the wiring of smoke detectors. If they are not present I can not inspect them. For the same reason I could fail you for them not being AFCI protected on the final. No I could not fail you for the placement of them.

Just because you get continuity with a wiggy does not meet 250.4(A)(4 & 5)

 

[al hildenbrand]

And I am required to know how other codes effect my trade.

Mike Parks, please cite the NEC section for that.

When I drill a hole in a microlam I'll tell the building inspector it is not in the NEC. Come on.

Mike, we're talking about bonding, not microlams.

I respect that, by your earlier claim, you wear many hats at once.

1. As the ESI (Electrical Safety Inspector) I would ask my RBO (Residential Building Official) the AHJ. (I am a RBO)
2. Next he would ask the RPI (Residential Plumbing Inspector), are the cold and hot water pipes different systems? (I am a RPI)

As you know, very few people are simultaneously an electrical, building and plumbing inspector AND an AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in a geographic jurisdiction.

The key is the geographic boundary of the jurisdiction(s) you hold authority in. The reasonableness of your opinion ends at the boundary of your jurisdiction(s).

Why?

Because your plumbing code that you have quoted is not universal, nor is your building code.

Holding forth here, on this National Electrical Code Forum, that your local plumbing code and microlam manufacturer's instructions require an electrician to bond the hot and cold water metal pipes at a hot water heater, at its face, is not reasonable.