Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

[jwelectric]

Mike W. This is an opinion. I have to read what is in the code.

No this in not an opinion but the findings of the Code Making Panel charged with the responsibility of writing this section of the code.

5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized , installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
.

Read 90.1(C) BTW I am NOT saying that you are untrained. It just says that this is not an instruction manual. It contains rules reguarding electrical connections.

And what part of Article 90 is enforceable? None of it! It is the introduction to the code and not one word found therein can be enforced in the field. It clearly states that any electrical installation made in compliance with this code would be a safe installation. It does not say that any electrical installation made in compliance with this and all the other codes.

So we agree that other codes are use by an electrician. And yes I could turn you down for no smokes. Because you are not ready for an electrical inspection. I am required to inspect the wiring of smoke detectors. If they are not present I can not inspect them. For the same reason I could fail you for them not being AFCI protected on the final. No I could not fail you for the placement of them.

No sir we do not agree that other codes are used by the electrician. Should you turn down my electrical installation due to the lack of smoke alarms you would be required in the state of NC to show me where smoke alarms are required in the NC Electrical Code. This would cause you a trip to the Qualification Board that issued you your inspector?s certificate.

Remember it was you that said; ?I would only use the NEC for an electrical inspection? and there is no where in the electrical code that requires a smoke alarm therefore you would have nothing to use for the rejection.

Just because you get continuity with a wiggy does not meet 250.4(A)(4 & 5)

What part of 250.4(A)(4 & 5) have to do with bonding the hot and cold water pipes together? I don?t see anything in those sections that address the metal water pipe. The metal water pipe is addressed in 250.104.

Personally I would use some sort of multi-meter to test the continuity but if I didn?t get a reading then it wouldn?t be a complete metal water pipe would it? Now I fall back to 250.104(B) as outlined by the Panel Statement above.

Now if you would be so kind please answer the question I asked in this post

 

[jxofaltrds]

JW.

?Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized , installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15?

YES. I agree. Now what is complete? They are talking about complete. Not pieces and parts. Nor am I.

Cold water system. Hot water system. When they are bonded THEN they are a complete system. Not until then.

BTW I do not think any metal water pipe will become energized if the electrical system is properly installed. But we all have accepted that the cold water piping will.


The last line.

"http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1115919&postcount=112"

What does that have to do with the hot/cold bond question?

"What part of 250.4(A)(4 & 5) have to do with bonding the hot and cold water pipes together? I don?t see anything in those sections that address the metal water pipe. The metal water pipe is addressed in 250.104."

250.4 is in the beginning of the article for a reason to explain the rest of the article.

"No sir we do not agree that other codes are used by the electrician. Should you turn down my electrical installation due to the lack of smoke alarms you would be required in the state of NC to show me where smoke alarms are required in the NC Electrical Code."

So OSHA rules do not apply either? I would not turn you down for lack of smokes. Just because that they where not 'wired' properly. Missing is not wired.

"This would cause you a trip to the Qualification Board that issued you your inspector?s certificate."

And they would ask you if the smokes where wired properly. How could they be they are missing.


"And what part of Article 90 is enforceable?"

All of it if codified.

Al

?Mike, we're talking about bonding, not microlams.?

You missed my point. Are you allowed to violate other codes? Yes or no?

?I respect that, by your earlier claim, you wear many hats at once.?

Thank you but what do my qualifications have to do with our argument?

?As you know, very few people are simultaneously an electrical, building and plumbing inspector AND an AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in a geographic jurisdiction.?

So does that mean the lack of knowledge ( no offense meant, just a question ) should be ignored?

"Because your plumbing code that you have quoted is not universal, nor is your building code"

Here is our code, and please look at the top of the page. ICC?
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b9v07/index.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

?Holding forth here, on this National Electrical Code Forum, that your local plumbing code and microlam manufacturer's instructions require an electrician to bond the hot and cold water metal pipes at a hot water heater, at its face, is not reasonable.?

This I do not know how to respond to.

 

[jwelectric]

YES. I agree. Now what is complete? They are talking about complete. Not pieces and parts. Nor am I.

Then a simple continuity test will tell me weather or not it is a complete metal piping system. If it does not have continuity then it is simply not a complete metal system and would fall under 250.104(B)

Cold water system. Hot water system. When they are bonded THEN they are a complete system. Not until then.

You will have to explain to me in detail how a bonding jumper makes a piping system a complete metal pipe.

BTW I do not think any metal water pipe will become energized if the electrical system is properly installed. But we all have accepted that the cold water piping will.

Just were does it say that a cold water pipe is going to get energized. I think that you are taking for granted that the metal water pipe mentioned in 250.52(A)(1) must be for main water supplies only. This is simply not true. Should I have a metal water pipe that has 10 feet or more in contact with earth it could have hot water and still would be required to be used as an electrode.

250.4 is in the beginning of the article for a reason to explain the rest of the article.

Almost right here, 250.4 is what grounding and bonding is to accomplish and the rest of Article 250 is how this requirement is to be accomplished.

So OSHA rules do not apply either? I would not turn you down for lack of smokes. Just because that they where not 'wired' properly. Missing is not wired.

No OSHA does not regulate the compliance of an electrical installation. As the sole proprietor and only employee of my company OSHA has no jurisdiction on my job at all. You can not turn down the electrician for not having something that is not required by the electrical code to be installed. Here in NC the Building Inspector would turn down the building inspection for no smoke alarms but the electrical inspector would be outside his jurisdiction or would I be better to say outside the NEC when trying to turn down the electrician.
That would be like turning down the electrician for not having a lock-out device on the branch circuit overcurrent or a disconnect with-in sight of a gas water heater.

And they would ask you if the smokes where wired properly. How could they be they are missing.

Here in NC the Board knows that smoke alarms falls under the jurisdiction of the building code and not under the jurisdiction of the NEC and would inform the code enforcement official of this.

"And what part of Article 90 is enforceable?"

All of it if codified.

then explain just what part of 90.1 mandates anything.

 

[hurk27]

I think we have to agree, that building codes are applied differently in different states, and the issue of the cold to hot bonding is not something new as I posted of very much older threads here.

Here in Indiana the electrical inspector does enforce the smoke requirements, and the state has even given leeway for local jurisdictions to adopt additional requirements, it's one of the very few codes that the state has allow to be changed locally, but there is state guidelines they also have to follow.

but as far as the rest of the building codes go, it is state law here, and we have a state wide building code, that local can not change.

here the state has taken a stance on bonding of the hot water pipe like this, the electrical inspector, will have a card for the building with all the info of the building on it, and a place to make notes as the building progress is done, so at each inspection the inspectors takes this card, and like on the rough, he will look at the water system, and look at the mixing valves, if they are of a solid electrical connection between the hot and cold he will make a note of it on his card, and also make notes like when he sees a 14/3 ran to a light opening, that the box wasn't braced or is not a fan rated box, and when he comes on the final, these things will be checked, this is their job. that way there is no guess work. if the water lines have a solid electrical connection between the hot and cold then no jumper is required.

again this is the way it's done here, or should I say, this is the way the state expects the local inspectors to do the inspections. and if they don't and they are challenged to the state, then they have no leg to stand on, and the state over rules them, end of story.

but we all know we don't live in a perfect world, and especially up here in northwest part of the state, they seem to try to do what they want, and it can be frustrating to try to go against them. as it holds up the job, and endangers the loss of the sale of the house. so we deal with a real PIA with inspectors here in this part of the state.

wouldn't it be nice if we had nation wide set of codes, with only exceptions for certain areas, for such reasons of earthquakes, hurricanes, flood areas, close approximation buildings or fire zones? only for these reasons do I see a need to have a different set of codes or requirements. any other reason wanting different code is strictly politically based.

Sad isn't it

 

[jxofaltrds]

Multilayer piping systems for hot and cold water installations inside buildings ? Part 1: General
http://store.ihs.com/specsstore/controller?event=LINK_SEARCH&search_value=iso 21003-1&mid=w092

Just because a fixture has ?metal? in it does not mean that it has been tested for bonding.

?Ground Bond Test
Verifies that all conductive parts of a product that are exposed to user contact are connected to the power line ground. The GB test verifies the integrity of the ground connection using a high current AC signal (as high as 30Amps). GB provides a better simulation of how a product will perform under an actual fault condition.?

Ground Bond Testers
http://www.quadtech.com/ground-bond-testers.aspx

?however, continuity alone doesn?t justify whether or not the wire (My words: plumbing fixture) is capable of handling the current it is meant to conduct.?

?An undeniable shortcoming of the Ground Continuity test is that it fails to verify the integrity of the earth ground conductor.?

?Many household time-delay fuses and/or circuit breakers can handle a 200% current overload condition for up to two minutes;?

http://www.hipot.com/resource/white_papers/GroundBondandGroundContinuityTesting.pdf

Also:
http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/clh/clh134.html

The NEC tells me what is approved for bonding. My opinion or the opinion of anyone else can not be used.

Hot water and cold water are separate systems therefore they must be bonded. Hot water lines are not a requirement.

 

[M. D.]

Mike P. ,. hypothetical ,.. so you come to inspect my wiring at the final ,.. you see that I did indeed bond the input and output pipes of the water heater .. as you turn to leave you notice a fitting ,..let's say a "T" ,.it is non conductive located in the output pipe at the ceiling about 4' up from the heater ,..then it is right back to copper . Do I have three systems now? You would require a bond here??

Now you start looking and sure enough every "T" on the output side is one of these new fangled things ,..which isolate metal piping ,.. would all of these be water piping systems IYO?

Because if it is a complete metal piping system it is already bonded ..and a jumpper at the water heater does nothing

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike P. ,. hypothetical ,.. so you come to inspect my wiring at the final ,.. you see that I did indeed bond the input and output pipes of the water heater .. as you turn to leave you notice a fitting ,..let's say a "T" ,.it is non conductive located in the output pipe at the ceiling about 4' up from the heater ,..then it is right back to copper . Do I have three systems now? You would require a bond here??

Now you start looking and sure enough every "T" on the output side is one of these new fangled things ,..which isolate metal piping ,.. would all of these be water piping systems IYO?

Because if it is a complete metal piping system it is already bonded ..and a jumpper at the water heater does nothing

I would stop after seeing the bond(s) present. It is the plumbing inspectors responsibilty to enforce the 'breaking' of the plumbing system.

You would pass. The plumber would fail.

I still say they are seperate systems.

 

[M. D.]

I would stop after seeing the bond(s) present.

which bond(s)? the original at the in/out pipes

It is the plumbing inspectors responsibility to enforce the 'breaking' of the plumbing system.

That must be a local code,.. here there is no requirement to make or keep a piping system electrically continuous

You would pass. The plumber would fail.

only if there is a local prohibition against non metallic piping in the plumbing code

I still say they are separate systems.

The question is how many and what in your mind constitutes a system,.. The tempature of the water or some measure of it being isolated?

The CMP seems to disagree with you on this point

 

[Johnmcca]

http://store.ihs.com/specsstore/controller?event=LINK_SEARCH&search_value=iso 21003-1&mid=w092

"Just because a fixture has ?metal? in it does not mean that it has been tested for bonding."

And the difference electrically between a metal valve body and an in line ball valve is...................?

 

[iwire]

Just because a fixture has ‘metal’ in it does not mean that it has been tested for bonding.

And the difference electrically between a metal valve body and an in line ball valve is...................?

Mike P. many of us have asked this same question of you already yet for some reason you refuse to acknowledge or even make an attempt to answer it.

In my opinion you have lost any chance of proving your point if you cannot answer this simple question.

How is the shower valve any different than other shut off valves, couplings, tees, elbows, reducers etc?

Do you require any of those items to be tested for bonding, yes or no?

 

[jxofaltrds]

In your post you stated that you bonded the hot and cold at the hot water tank. Could be some where else.

So that is where I stop for the requirements of 250.104.

"The question is how many and what in your mind constitutes a system,.. "

The hot water reference is based on the IPC (International Plumbing Code).

SECTION 601 GENERAL
"This chapter shall govern the materials, design and installation of water supply systems, both hot and cold, *****"
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b9v07/st_oh_st_b9v07_6_sec001.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

SECTION 607 HOT WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM It is called a system.
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b9v07/st_oh_st_b9v07_6_sec007.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

"That must be a local code,.. here there is no requirement to make or keep a piping system electrically continuous "

601.3 Existing piping used for grounding.

Existing metallic water service piping used for electrical grounding shall not be replaced with nonmetallic pipe or tubing until other approved means of grounding is provided.
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st...b9v07_6_sec001_par002.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

"The CMP seems to disagree with you on this point"

LOL People disagree with me alot. Sometimes I am correct sometimes not.

I try to read the words and not read what I want into them.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike P. many of us have asked this same question of you already yet for some reason you refuse to acknowledge or even make an attempt to answer it.

In my opinion you have lost any chance of proving your point if you cannot answer this simple question.

How is the shower valve any different than other shut off valves, couplings, tees, elbows, reducers etc?

Do you require any of those items to be tested for bonding, yes or no?

Bob

I can not answer that. They may all be the same. And I DO understand you and
everyone else.

I just have to look at the approved bonding methods in the NEC.

We are bonding the 'metal water piping". We are not required to understand the plumbing system(s).

I will not assume that fixtures meet NEC bonding requirements. Nor can I understand how anyone can state that fixtures are approved for bonding without testing them.

Why do we jump the water meter?

I can not require you to test anything.

 

[Johnmcca]

We jump the meter to maintain electrical continuity of the ground, since meters can be removed for servicing.

"I will not assume that fixtures meet NEC bonding requirements..."

Then why are we required to bond , if the 'system' fixtures are of questionable ability to meet the requirement?

 

[iwire]

I will not assume that fixtures meet NEC bonding requirements. Nor can I understand how anyone can state that fixtures are approved for bonding without testing them.

But you do assume that!



Unless you are requiring a bonding jumper around all other valves.

 

[jxofaltrds]

We jump the meter to maintain electrical continuity of the ground, since meters can be removed for servicing.

"I will not assume that fixtures meet NEC bonding requirements..."

Then why are we required to bond , if the 'system' fixtures are of questionable ability to meet the requirement?

John

Yes to your first line.

It is possible that there is only one shower valve in a home. What if it is removed and/or cpvc is used for the repair?

With my plumber's hat on now. I have seen may plumbing repairs that have compromised the bonding of metal water piping systems. No we can not stop this or predict the future. Nor can we insure that they will reconnect bonding clamps after a repair.

 

[jxofaltrds]

But you do assume that!



Unless you are requiring a bonding jumper around all other valves.

If there is a hot to cold bond the fixtures which are at the end of the line are protected.

I am just required to bond the metal water piping. What the plumber does is out of my control.

Valves in a residence are usually near the end of a supply. Hence a short section of pipe (not required to be bonded) to which I think that the code opinion was about.

Again if a plumber installs anything on the waterlines it is his responsiblity to ensure that the bonding has not been broken. Not ours.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Question to anyone.

If you did a service upgrade and only the cold water line was bonded would you jumper to the hot water lines? Would you say it was grandfathered? Would you assume a bond via a hidden shower valve?

Again I go back to 90.1(A). Why do we have different rules for residential? We all know that these systems are not under the exclusive control of a qualified individual. No this is not in the code nor is common sense stated in the code.

My job as an electrician and as an inspector is to insure a safe installation.

So when a subject like this comes up and there are individuals on both sides with different opinions I must error on the side of safety.

 

[iwire]

Mike this is becoming laughable at this point, I am really starting to think you're just trolling.

Valves can either bond or they can?t, yet you have no problem saying otherwise. You are not making a darn bit of sense here.

 

[LarryFine]

Just because a fixture has ?metal? in it does not mean that it has been tested for bonding.

Can we say the same about metallic water pipe itself?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike this is becoming laughable at this point, I am really starting to think you're just trolling.

Valves can either bond or they can?t, yet you have no problem saying otherwise. You are not making a darn bit of sense here.

Bob

I am serious on my stance.

Valves probably do bond. And I believe that they do. Like these:
http://www.apollovalves.com/products/subcategories.asp?cat=3



Do shower valves? I do not know. They are not part of the piping system.

"PLUMBING FIXTURE. A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises."
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b9v07/st_oh_st_b9v07_2_sec002.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

It is connected to the system. It is not part of it.

Metal water piping both hot and cold are seperate systems.

Larry

"Can we say the same about metallic water pipe itself? "

We are not concerned with any properties or listings of the metal water piping. We just have to bond to it with approved methods.

I have not seen plumbing fixtures in UL 467.

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073988940&sequence=1