Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

[al hildenbrand]

http://www.plasticpipesgroup.com/pdfs/earthbonding.pdf

From: by Paul Cook of the Institute of Electrical Engineers

Tell me what you think of Table A

Mike,

This looks like more microlam instructions. . . that is, the reference is disturbingly off topic.

Now you are holding up a European study on some country's earthing practices as justification for NEC electricians being required to bond hot and cold water pipes at a water heater in the US.

 

[Johnmcca]

250.8(B)
If it weren't for solder, how would the domestic water supply exist in many homes? So how can we rely on a soldered join to perform. Bonding jumpers on all joints?

 

[suemarkp]

Soldered wires aren't filled with water. All that water in the pipes acts as a heat sink, so a fault into a water pipe isn't going to melt the solder.

 

[Johnmcca]

Thanks Mark, but I was also trying to point out the absurdity of this this thread.:grin:

 

[electricmanscott]

Thanks Mark, but I was also trying to point out the absurdity of this this thread.:grin:

Let's be fair. This thread is not absurd, the question is legit. The information presented by Mike in defense of his position is absurd.

 

[Johnmcca]

Thanks Scott. Your phrasing is more eloquent than mine, but it was what I was getting at.

 

[iwire]

let's be fair. This thread is not absurd, the question is legit. The information presented by mike in defense of his position is absurd.

90.1 90.1 90.1

 

[jxofaltrds]

I like the discussion starting on pp11.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=82314&page=11

I especially George?s pictures and his comment.

?It makes more sense to bond everything or nothing as opposed to an undefined piece of something.?

From Mike Whitt ?There is no requirement in the plumbing code to make the water piping system 100% metal nor is there a requirement in the plumbing code to replace metal for metal in the process of repairing a metal water pipe?

Yes there is. In so far as the replacement of metal piping.

From Mike W again: ? I like Mike Holt?s use of the words ?removable device? as this best describes things such as water meters, water filters, softeners and such.
All that is said in 250.53(D)(1) is that if I have a metal water meter or a metal water filter or such other devices, the device even though it is made of metal can not be used for the grounding path (conductor). A jumper must be installed.?

So what does this mean?

 

[Johnmcca]

A jumper at every fitting? They can all be removed for any of a number of reasons. But the NEC is all I'm concerned with, not the plumbing code.

 

[jwelectric]

I like the discussion starting on pp11.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=82314&page=11

I especially George?s pictures and his comment.

?It makes more sense to bond everything or nothing as opposed to an undefined piece of something.?

From Mike Whitt ?There is no requirement in the plumbing code to make the water piping system 100% metal nor is there a requirement in the plumbing code to replace metal for metal in the process of repairing a metal water pipe?

Yes there is. In so far as the replacement of metal piping.

From Mike W again: ? I like Mike Holt?s use of the words ?removable device? as this best describes things such as water meters, water filters, softeners and such.
All that is said in 250.53(D)(1) is that if I have a metal water meter or a metal water filter or such other devices, the device even though it is made of metal can not be used for the grounding path (conductor). A jumper must be installed.?

So what does this mean?

This discussion is concerning the requirement of 250.52(A)(1) and 250.104(A)(1)

There can be no removable device between the grounding electrode and the interior metal water piping system if the metal pipe is going to be used to bond the interior (250.104(A)(1)) to the grounding electrode (250.52(A)(1))
In other words if there is nothing that is removable between the metal in contact with earth and the metal pipe on the interior of the building then the metal pipe would fulfill the requirements of 250.104(A). Notice that there is nothing mentioned here about bonding the hot and cold either.

If the interior metal piping system is not 100% metal water pipe then the requirement of 250.53(D)(1) is out the window and no longer required.

A simple test can be done by either the electrical contractor or the electrical inspector to see if it is a complete metal piping system. Do a continuity test from one end of the piping system to the other. If there is no continuity then no bonding except for the equipment grounding conductor that is included with the circuit supplying anything in the metal piping system 250.104(B).

I think that you agree that stubs such as copper on the inside of walls turned down and connected to pex piping system would not require bonding by Table 250.66. Now what is the difference between this copper piping and the hot and cold pipes?

Could you refer me to the requirement in the plumbing code that requires a plumber to replace metal for metal in a plumbing system?
Could you refer me to the requirement in the plumbing code that requires a plumber to make anything he installs electrically continuous?

 

[jxofaltrds]

"A jumper at every fitting? They can all be removed for any of a number of reasons."

Never said at every fitting. Yes they can be removed. But we are talking about the electrician.

"If the interior metal piping system is not 100% metal water pipe then the requirement of 250.53(D)(1) is out the window and no longer required"

NO NO NO. It says (250.104(A)(1)) system(s). And who defines and/or said 100%?
Then please tell me what other systems they (the NEC) are talking about.

"I think that you agree that stubs such as copper on the inside of walls turned down and connected to pex piping system would not require bonding by Table 250.66."

YES we are in total agreement.

"Now what is the difference between this copper piping and the hot and cold pipes?"

They are seperate system(s). Note the (s). In the plumbing code 607.

"Could you refer me to the requirement in the plumbing code that requires a plumber to replace metal for metal in a plumbing system?"

No. Not required.

Could you refer me to the requirement in the plumbing code that requires a plumber to make anything he installs electrically continuous?

YES. Repairs.

If the plumbing system or systems are NOT complete (pieces and parts) then we do not have to bond.

Cold is a system. Hot is a system.

As I have stated before the hot water system (the Pipes) is not required per se.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Follow up as I did not see this before:

"A simple test can be done by either the electrical contractor or the electrical inspector to see if it is a complete metal piping system. Do a continuity test from one end of the piping system to the other. If there is no continuity then no bonding except for the equipment grounding conductor that is included with the circuit supplying anything in the metal piping system 250.104(B)."

What if a #18 (or smaller) wire made the continuity test show good? Are you still comfortable with that test?

We have one job. That is to bond per 250. How we do it is the question before us. What is the approved method?

 

[al hildenbrand]

What if a #18 (or smaller) wire made the continuity test show good? Are you still comfortable with that test?

So, in your opinion, the insertion of hidden undersized jumpers around nonconductive repairs of what was a complete metal water pipe system is so common that it should be feared? (Non conductive repairs by a licensed plumber who is deliberately not following that plumbing code reference of yours.)

 

[Johnmcca]

Why do we as electricians, have to be concerned with the plumbing code?

 

[3-D]

I'm in a building that was 4 small offices, has been gutted and is now 4 small rentals, basically 1 room with bedrooms. The original offices were copper, the new contractor is using a lot of plastic.
Is there a good definition of "what is likely to become energized?"

The main water is still copper, and is still bonded to the main, each unit has it's own panel and a good mixture of copper and plastic.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Is there a good definition of "what is likely to become energized?"

In my opinion, the explanatory text in the NEC Handbook does a good job.

2008 NECH
250.104(b)
After the fine print note:

Unlike the metal piping systems covered in 250.104(A), this requirement applies only to metal piping systems that are likely to become energized. What this means is that where metal piping systems and electrical circuits interface through mechanical and electrical connections within equipment, a failure of electrical insulation can result in the connected piping system(s) becoming energized. Gas appliances are a common example of metal gas piping and electrical circuits being connected to a common piece of equipment, and in this case the 250.104(B) requirements apply. The required bonding of these other piping systems can occur at the same locations specified in 250.104(A), or an additional provision within this paragraph permits the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping as the means for bonding the piping. Typically, the use of an additional bonding jumper is not necessary to comply with this requirement, because the equipment grounding connection to the non?current-carrying metal parts of the appliance also provides a bonding connection to the metal piping attached to the appliance. This is a bonding requirement, and the other piping is not being used as an electrode. Therefore, this requirement does not conflict with 250.52(B)(1), which prohibits the use of metal underground gas piping as a grounding electrode for electrical services or other sources of supply. To prevent the underground gas piping from inadvertently becoming a grounding electrode there must be electrical isolation between the portion that is required to be bonded from the underground segment of metal gas piping. This may be inherent at the interface between the gas supplier's equipment and the premises gas piping.

 

[jwelectric]

"If the interior metal piping system is not 100% metal water pipe then the requirement of 250.53(D)(1) is out the window and no longer required"

NO NO NO. It says (250.104(A)(1)) system(s). And who defines and/or said 100%?
Then please tell me what other systems they (the NEC) are talking about.

If the underground metal water pipe has no removable device from the point it enters the building and the end of five feet then there is no requirement to install the bonding jumper outlined in 250.104(A)(1)
The code making panel clearly made the statement in the proposal that I posted earlier in this thread that 250.104(A)(1) address complete metal water piping systems. If there is no continuity in the metal pipe then it is not a complete metal pipe plain and simple.

"I think that you agree that stubs such as copper on the inside of walls turned down and connected to pex piping system would not require bonding by Table 250.66."

YES we are in total agreement.
"Now what is the difference between this copper piping and the hot and cold pipes?"
They are seperate system(s). Note the (s). In the plumbing code 607.

Who cares how the plumbing code defines a plumbing system? You keep referring to 607 of the plumbing code. In the ICC Section 607 only address the hot water pipes and their installation.
In Section 202 it defines a Plumbing System as the following;
PLUMBING SYSTEM. Includes the water supply and distribution pipes; plumbing fixtures and traps; water-treating or water- using equipment; soil, waste and vent pipes; and sanitary and storm sewers and building drains; in addition to their respective connections, devices and appurtenances within a structure or premises.

It also defines potable water as
POTABLE WATER. Water free from impurities present in amounts sufficient to cause disease or harmful physiological effects and conforming to the bacteriological and chemical quality requirements of the Public Health Service Drinking Water Standards or the regulations of the public health authority having jurisdiction.

The plumbing code also says that only one type of water can be piped to plumbing fixtures
602.2 Potable water required. Only potable water shall be supplied to plumbing fixtures that provide water for drinking, bathing or culinary purposes, or for the processing of food, medical or pharmaceutical products. Unless otherwise provided in this code, potable water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures.

I don?t see a requirement to have one potable water system of cold and another potable water system of hot.


Yes I agree that a building has two water systems but they are potable and waste not hot and cold. The hot and cold water are both potable water and part of one system.

No. Not required.

Then how can you expect the metal water pipe to remain electrically continuous?

YES. Repairs.[/color]

When did the state of Ohio start requiring plumber to make electrical installations? Here in NC a plumber is not allowed to make electrical installations. He can?t even disconnect and reconnect a water heater unless he has an electrical license.
I think you are using 601.3 for your statement concerning repairs.
601.3 Existing piping used for grounding. Existing metallic water service piping used for electrical grounding shall not be replaced with nonmetallic pipe or tubing until other approved means of grounding is provided.

See Article 100 of the NEC to find out what grounding is about. I believe you will see it is the connection to earth. The first five feet of metal water pipe can not be replaced with nonmetallic water pipe until another electrode is in place. For the past life time the requirement to install a supplemental electrode has fulfilled this requirement.

Cold is a system. Hot is a system.

Unless you are saying that one or the other is not potable water then they are both part of the potable water system and are not part of two separate systems.

As I have stated before the hot water system (the Pipes) is not required per se.

Then your argument is null and void. If there is no requirement to bond the hot water pipe there is no requirement to bond between the two.

 

[jwelectric]

Follow up as I did not see this before:

"A simple test can be done by either the electrical contractor or the electrical inspector to see if it is a complete metal piping system. Do a continuity test from one end of the piping system to the other. If there is no continuity then no bonding except for the equipment grounding conductor that is included with the circuit supplying anything in the metal piping system 250.104(B)."

What if a #18 (or smaller) wire made the continuity test show good? Are you still comfortable with that test?

We have one job. That is to bond per 250. How we do it is the question before us. What is the approved method?

I am not going to install any #18 around anything so none should exist. Should someone else install #18 somewhere in a metal pipe that is not complete what would it matter?
Yes we have a job to install bonding jumpers as outlined in Article 250 but not as outlined by someone's standards or some short sentence quoted from the plumbing code.

The answer to why we are required to bond a complete metal water pipe that is not part of the grounding electrode system has already been posted through one of the proposals. Understanding the panel statement in that proposal would help in clearing up this myth of bonding hot and cold.
When reading that proposal try and remember that thoughout the US there are many different types of potable water supplies. Some in the older cities such as NY city still have metal underground water supplies that carry current due to open neutrals. It is not always the current leaving the house we are concerned with but current coming from the water supply looking for a way back to the source that we must be concerned with.

 

[jxofaltrds]

"If the underground metal water pipe has no removable device from the point it enters the building and the end of five feet then there is no requirement to install the bonding jumper outlined in 250.104(A)(1)"

YES. Again we agree. The cold water is bonded. Here is where we have a disagreement. But not the hot water lines.

250.104(A)(1) says nothing about likely to become energized. That 250.104(B)

We must bond metal water piping system(s) per 250.104(A)(1).

"The code making panel clearly made the statement in the proposal that I posted earlier in this thread that 250.104(A)(1) address complete metal water piping systems. If there is no continuity in the metal pipe then it is not a complete metal pipe plain and simple."

The hot water piping IF all metal must be bonded. It is a seperate system. It would be a complete system if it was metal all the way to the point of delivery. The hot water system starts at the tank. It is not part of the cold water system.

"Who cares how the plumbing code defines a plumbing system?"

I do. And so do many AHJ around the country.

The NEC does not define a metal water piping system(s) so where would you get your definition?

"Why do we as electricians, have to be concerned with the plumbing code?"

Are you concerned with the building code(s)? You can not just drill holes anywhere in lumber to install wiring. Correct?
You may not like it but the NEC is under the building code. Not the other way around.

Aren't plumbers required to know that they cannot remove our 'bonds'?

 

[jwelectric]

The hot water piping IF all metal must be bonded. It is a seperate system. It would be a complete system if it was metal all the way to the point of delivery. The hot water system starts at the tank. It is not part of the cold water system.

I challenge you to show text from any code that states the hot water pipes is a separate system from the cold water pipes. The section you quote (607) does not define hot water pipes as a separate system.

607.1 Where required. In residential occupancies, hot water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures and equipment utilized for bathing, washing, culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance. In nonresidential occupancies, hot water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures and equipment utilized for culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance. In nonresidential occupancies, hot water or tempered water shall be supplied for bathing and washing purposes. Tempered water shall be delivered from accessible hand-washing facilities.

This section requires that hot water be supplied to certain fixtures but the only water that is allowed to be at these same fixtures is potable water.

602.2 Potable water required. Only potable water shall be supplied to plumbing fixtures that provide water for drinking, bathing or culinary purposes, or for the processing of food, medical or pharmaceutical products. Unless otherwise provided in this code, potable water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures.

They are both part of the potable water system and do not constitute two separate systems.
To quote you which section comes first? Wouldn?t you say that the one comes first would carry the most weight?

The NEC does not define a metal water piping system(s) so where would you get your definition?

I use the text found in the Report on Proposals for the electrical code when trying to learn something about the NEC. I sure don?t look in any other code to see what they allow.

Aren't plumbers required to know that they cannot remove our 'bonds'?

Plumbers are not allowed to remove any electrical connection at all just as an electrician is not allowed to remove any plumbing at all unless they hold a license in the prospective field.