Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

[jxofaltrds]

Now you are losing.

"They are both part of the potable water system and do not constitute two separate systems."

Says who? Site me, other than an opinion, a code that says that they are 'one'.

"I use the text found in the Report on Proposals for the electrical code when trying to learn something about the NEC. I sure don?t look in any other code to see what they allow."

So if the NEC say that your holes only have to be XXX"'s away from the face of lumber thats OK? What if it is a floor joist?

"Wouldn?t you say that the one comes first would carry the most weight?"

So if my post was first I would win?

No as in ALL code the more specific always wins.

"potable water system "

Is that in the NEC? The NEC says metal water piping. Period.

You are losing this battle.

"Plumbers are not allowed to remove any electrical connection at all just as an electrician is not allowed to remove any plumbing at all unless they hold a license in the prospective field. "

And this has to do with bonding how?

 

[jwelectric]

Now you are losing.

how do you figure this?

"They are both part of the potable water system and do not constitute two separate systems."

Says who? Site me, other than an opinion, a code that says that they are 'one'.

I did site you code, the one that says they are one and the same. I posted what is printed in the ICC Plumbing Code

"I use the text found in the Report on Proposals for the electrical code when trying to learn something about the NEC. I sure don?t look in any other code to see what they allow."

So if the NEC say that your holes only have to be XXX"'s away from the face of lumber thats OK? What if it is a floor joist?

It does say 1 ? inch from the edge in 300.4(A)(1) and yes I drill floor joist all the time. Are you saying that it is a violation to drill floor joist?

"potable water system "

Is that in the NEC? The NEC says metal water piping. Period.

No the potable water system is in the plumbing code. The one you claim defines a difference between hot and cold systems. Yes the NEC says complete metal water systems and it would include the hot and cold metal pipes as one system. No where does the NEC or the ICC Plumbing distinguish a difference in the two.

You are losing this battle.

now this is only your opinion and I don?t think of it as a battle but instead as a learning experience for someone.

"Plumbers are not allowed to remove any electrical connection at all just as an electrician is not allowed to remove any plumbing at all unless they hold a license in the prospective field. "

And this has to do with bonding how?

I don?t know as you are the one that brought it up.

 

[M. D.]

Well,.. I just thought I'd post this,.. and say" thanks for trying George " ,.. If I had to guess?,.. I'd say this was a result of that previous discussion which was, IMO, one of the best.

P.S. Mike P. your argument , IMO ,..is weak.


from the latest proposals
_______________________________________________________________

Submitter: George M. Stolz, II, Pierce, CO
Recommendation: Add new text as follows:

For the purposes of this section, a metal water piping system shall be any
metal piping containing water for domestic, fire suppression or other use that is
25 ft or more in length, which is accessible without disturbing the building
finish.
Substantiation: The main objective of this proposal is clarity, and an attempt
to spur the panel into providing us with some definition of what they consider a
“metal water piping system.” How much pipe must be in place for us to worry
about bonding it? An isolated manifold in a PEX system? Half of a house
separated from the service by a PVC coupling repair? Enforcement of this
section is wildly sporadic, due to the different views left open by the lack of a
definition. A definition is needed to provide more uniform enforcement and
understanding of these requirements in the NEC.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: The 25 ft parameter in the recommendation is not
technically substantiated.

Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 16
________________________________

 

[jxofaltrds]

" did site you code, the one that says they are one and the same. I posted what is printed in the ICC Plumbing Code"

OK I am stupid. Please cite it again for me now.

"Originally Posted by jxofaltrds
"They are both part of the potable water system and do not constitute two separate systems.""

This is NOT my statement. Please only quote what 'I' have said.

"Yes the NEC says complete metal water systems and it would include the hot and cold metal pipes as one system"

Whose opinion? Yours?

So if a PE (Professional Engineer) says something that you do not agree with, is he an ill-iformed individual also? I guess you know more than a PE also.

Why is it hard to listen to someone in (from) a different trade? Are electricians smarter than everyone else?

 

[jxofaltrds]

MD

You and others provide NO definition of a metal water system other than saying it must be 100% complete.

So please tell me IYHO what a metal water system is!

So a rejection (George's) makes your point?

Again give me a definition of a metal water piping system. And quote it.

Please use the word metal or piping or water in the definition.

 

[jwelectric]

-

I did site you code, the one that says they are one and the same. I posted what is printed in the ICC Plumbing Code

OK I am stupid. Please cite it again for me now.

Try clicking here and one more time

"Originally Posted by jxofaltrds

"They are both part of the potable water system and do not constitute two separate systems." This is NOT my statement. Please only quote what 'I' have said.

Notice the quotation marks that YOU used when you was posting my quote? That is the reason I left them there. Do you like this type format better?

No the potable water system is in the plumbing code. The one you claim defines a difference between hot and cold systems. Yes the NEC says complete metal water systems and it would include the hot and cold metal pipes as one system. No where does the NEC or the ICC Plumbing distinguish a difference in the two.

Whose opinion? Yours?

No not mine but the International Code Council the authors of the Plumbing Code as outlined in my previous post that you didn’t read.

So if a PE (Professional Engineer) says something that you do not agree with, is he an ill-iformed individual also? I guess you know more than a PE also.

It is not a matter if I agree with the PE or not but if the PE says something that is incorrect with the code they would be just as wrong as anyone else. The fact that they hang a label on the end of their name does not omit them from mistakes.

Why is it hard to listen to someone in (from) a different trade? Are electricians smarter than everyone else?

I have no problem listening to someone from another trade and do so on a daily basis. It is when someone is injecting their own opinion and their opinion does not line up with what those charged with writing the code that the disagreement starts.

Definition of a metal water piping system is simple. It is a complete metal piping system that contains water. The (s) found in 250.104(A)(1) would include complete metal piping systems that carry water such as potable water, gray water, water used for heating such as a circulating hot water heating system but is does not mean hot and cold potable water is two different systems.

 

[M. D.]

MD

You and others provide NO definition of a metal water system other than saying it must be 100% complete.


So a rejection (George's) makes your point?

Again give me a definition of a metal water piping system. And quote it.

Please use the word metal or piping or water in the definition.

Metal water piping system remains undefined as far as the NEC goes ..

I posted what George proposed as information,. and to say thanks ,.. this section needs work,.. he recognized this and tried to make a positive change, it is more than I did and I appreciate his effort.

Given what I have read in the various ROP and ROC and given the changes to the relationship between the metal water pipe system and the NEC ,.it is my opinion that the stronger argument is expressed this way .
If the CMP does not believe that isolated metal piping due to the insertion of plastic pipe makes for 2 systems why would the insertion of a heating appliance make for 2 systems???

In the real world most of the houses I work in have washer valves and shower valves like those which Bob posted ,..the pipes are bonded ,.. My hot water baseboard is bonded to the EGC and the Metal water feed ,..my waste pipe is not all metal ,..and I doubt that it is bonded and I doubt it will ever be an issue .

There are lots of folks that will agree with you ,..I just haven't seen anything to convince me that the temperature of water makes for a separate system.

 

[jxofaltrds]

So at the end of the day the only thing we disagree about is the definition of a metal water piping system. BTW thank you for continuing to debate this with me. I sometimes forget to do this.

"If the CMP does not believe that isolated metal piping due to the insertion of plastic pipe makes for 2 systems why would the insertion of a heating appliance make for 2 systems???"

I think that they did not want us to have to bond every little piece in the structure. If you had an on-demand heater located near the fixture then used copper, then I say no bonding. That would be something that the CMP is talking about.

"PLUMBING SYSTEM. Includes the water supply and distribution pipes; plumbing fixtures and traps; water-treating or water-using equipment; soil, waste and vent pipes; and sanitary and storm sewers and building drains; in addition to their respective connections, devices and appurtenances within a structure or premises."
"WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM. The water service pipe, water distribution pipes, and the necessary connecting pipes, fittings, control valves and all appurtenances in or adjacent to the structure or premises."

And:

"WATER HEATER. Any heating appliance or equipment that heats potable water and supplies such water to the potable hot water distribution system."

http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/oh/st/b9v07/st_oh_st_b9v07_2_sec002.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

Please note "to the potable hot water distribution system"

"604.2 System interconnection.

At the points of interconnection between the hot and cold water supply piping systems and the individual fixtures, appliances or devices, provisions shall be made to prevent flow between such piping systems." http://publicecodes.citation.com/st...b9v07_6_sec004_par001.htm?bu=OH-P-2005-000004

Again "hot and cold water supply piping systems"

Now to the fixtures. Yes I would agree that they are bonded. But that does not mean approved. The fixture is for the distribution of water not "to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts". Article 100.

 

[hurk27]

Now to the fixtures. Yes I would agree that they are bonded. But that does not mean approved. The fixture is for the distribution of water not "to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts". Article 100.

As said before, water valves, elbows, T's, couplings, Etc... are all "for the distribution of water" and none are "to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts"

So in essents by using this reasoning all the above would be required to be bonded around "to ensure the required electrical conductivity" because none is aproved.

 

[Johnmcca]

Wayne, nice call!

 

[jwelectric]

Mr Parks

With the deepest of respect for your trade and as a person would you take a couple of minutes to answer a couple of questions for me?

Using the link you posted to the Ohio State Plumbing Code could you define what is a CROSS CONNECTION?

In the following two proposals made for the 2008 cycle of the NEC the CMP choose the words ?complete metallic water piping system.? Would you explain what in your mind makes a metallic pipe complete? Remember now that no bonding is required until the plumber has finished installing his system.

5-235 Log #1834 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark T. Rochon, Mark J. Rochon Master Electrician
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
General Combination metal water piping system(s) separated by nonmetallic water piping system(s) where may become energized installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used.
Substantiation: Nonmetallic water piping systems are being inserted between our metal water piping system and today?s code is not recognizing these changes.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The conditions indicated in the substantiation are already covered by 250.104(B) where there is not a complete metallic water piping system.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
____________________________________________________________
5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized, installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15

In my mind if I don?t have continuity from one end of this piping system to the other then it is not a complete metal system. In the mind of the CMP should a complete metal water piping system have a repair where one inch of nonmetallic water pipe is used to replace a damaged piece of the metal pipe then the bonding requirements of 250.104(A) just fell to 250.104(B). These are the powers of the NEC and not what is found in the ICC plumbing codes.

In the definition of cross connection found in the plumbing code it does not identify the potable water as being two different systems such as hot and cold but as one complete potable water system. Therefore if I don?t have continuity from the point of entry of the potable water supply to the end of the hot water pipe then it is not a complete metallic water piping system and would fall under the scope of 250.104(B).

In 42 years of doing electrical work in the great state of North Carolina I have never installed a jumper from cold to hot and I promise you I have wired many buildings that contained metal water pipes. I suppose my state has it all wrong.

 

[M. D.]

Wayne, nice call!

It won't do any good this point has been made several times in this thread ,.. I don't think Mike Parks ever answered Scott about what he would do about the pipe dope and teflon tape on the gas piping? He used both as reason why one would need to bond the hot to the cold.

 

[Johnmcca]

M.D. I am aware of that. I was just commenting that Wayne got it right.

 

[jxofaltrds]

As said before, water valves, elbows, T's, couplings, Etc... are all "for the distribution of water" and none are "to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts"

So in essents by using this reasoning all the above would be required to be bonded around "to ensure the required electrical conductivity" because none is aproved.

The fittings are part of the piping system. No bonding required across fittings. We are required to bond the piping system(s). I am talking about 250.104(A)(1) metal WATER piping not 250.104(B) other metal piping. Likely to become energized does not apply to metal water pipng. You must bond period.

"With the deepest of respect for your trade and as a person would you take a couple of minutes to answer a couple of questions for me?"

"CROSS CONNECTION. Any physical connection or arrangement between two otherwise separate piping systems, one of which contains potable water and the other either water of unknown or questionable safety or steam, gas or chemical, whereby there exists the possibility for flow from one system to the other, with the direction of flow depending on the pressure differential between the two systems (see ?Backflow?)."

A sprinkler system. Or http://www.weil-mclain.com/downloads/literature/indirect/plusmanual.pdf
In the diagram(s) I would not require a jumper between each fitting, just hot, cold, and mixed water systems.

I would reject 5-235 Log #1834 NEC-P05 and 5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 also.

"It won't do any good this point has been made several times in this thread ,.. I don't think Mike Parks ever answered Scott about what he would do about the pipe dope and teflon tape on the gas piping? He used both as reason why one would need to bond the hot to the cold."

I retracted that a while back and do again. Bad argument.

"one complete potable water system."

Only defines potable water not system.

POTABLE WATER. Water free from impurities present in amounts sufficient to cause disease or harmful physiological effects and conforming to the bacteriological and chemical quality requirements of the Public Health Service Drinking Water Standards or the regulations of the public health authority having jurisdiction.

"In 42 years of doing electrical work in the great state of North Carolina I have never installed a jumper from cold to hot and I promise you I have wired many buildings that contained metal water pipes. I suppose my state has it all wrong."

I did not start the hot/cold bond until 2002 when I re-read 250.104.

 

[jwelectric]

In the definition of cross connection found in the plumbing code it does not identify the potable water as being two different systems such as hot and cold but as one complete potable water system.

Only defines potable water not system.

Better look again. CROSSCONNECTION. Any physical connection or arrangement between two otherwise separate piping systems, one of which contains potable water and the other either water of unknown or questionable safety????.

Your definition only defines what potable water is but does not define the system that carries the potable water. There is clear verbiage found in the plumbing code that defines the pipes that carry potable water as the potable water system. There is also verbiage in the plumbing code that says that only potable water can be connected to fixtures where water is taken for human consumption but no where does it define the difference between hot and cold potable water. This is a myth that some try to use to usurp their authority over something that they truly do not understand.

I would reject 5-235 Log #1834 NEC-P05 and 5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 also.

Well if you would just ignore what those charged with writing the NEC has to say then I can?t see where there is much hope for you. All I can say now if that I hope you don?t run across someone that would be willing to fight this through the court system.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Better look again. CROSSCONNECTION. Any physical connection or arrangement between two otherwise separate piping systems, one of which contains potable water and the other either water of unknown or questionable safety????.

Your definition only defines what potable water is but does not define the system that carries the potable water. There is clear verbiage found in the plumbing code that defines the pipes that carry potable water as the potable water system. There is also verbiage in the plumbing code that says that only potable water can be connected to fixtures where water is taken for human consumption but no where does it define the difference between hot and cold potable water. This is a myth that some try to use to usurp their authority over something that they truly do not understand.

Well if you would just ignore what those charged with writing the NEC has to say then I can?t see where there is much hope for you. All I can say now if that I hope you don?t run across someone that would be willing to fight this through the court system.

They rejected those changes and I agree.

 

[jxofaltrds]

"Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized."

A cold water system and a hot water system are separate parts of the complete metallic piping system.

The question is how does this bonding requirement need to be carried out.

I say a jumper. Others say fixtures are acceptible.

Fixtures are not part of the piping system. They are like devices being feed from a branch circuit. Two different items.

"PLUMBING FIXTURE. A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises."

Note the "connected to the water distribution system".

"FIXTURE SUPPLY. The water supply pipe connecting a fixture to a branch water supply pipe or directly to a main water supply pipe.'

 

[jwelectric]

They rejected those changes and I agree.

Did you read their statements?

Panel Statement: The conditions indicated in the substantiation are already covered by 250.104(B) where there is not a complete metallic water piping system.


Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.


Simply physics states that if there is not continuity from one end to the other end of the potable water system then it can?t be a complete metal system therefore it would fall under 250.104(B)

There is absolutely no requirement to bond the hot and cold water pipes in any building. Both the hot and cold water system is part of one system called the potable water system. They are not two different systems.

 

[jwelectric]

"Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized."

A cold water system and a hot water system are separate parts of the complete metallic piping system.

The question is how does this bonding requirement need to be carried out.

I say a jumper. Others say fixtures are acceptible.

Fixtures are not part of the piping system. They are like devices being feed from a branch circuit. Two different items.

"PLUMBING FIXTURE. A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises."

Note the "connected to the water distribution system".

"FIXTURE SUPPLY. The water supply pipe connecting a fixture to a branch water supply pipe or directly to a main water supply pipe.'

See you are now backing my statement that there is only one potable water system and not a cold potable water system and a hot potable water system. What part of this posted statement states that there are two different systems found to supply these fixtures?

[Note the "connected to the water distribution system".]

Maybe they meant to say connect to the hot water distribution and also to the cold water distribution system that must be bonded together, but just did finish their statement.

 

[electricmanscott]

"Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized."

A cold water system and a hot water system are separate parts of the complete metallic piping system.

The question is how does this bonding requirement need to be carried out.

I say a jumper. Others say fixtures are acceptible.

Fixtures are not part of the piping system. They are like devices being feed from a branch circuit. Two different items.

"PLUMBING FIXTURE. A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises."

Note the "connected to the water distribution system".

"FIXTURE SUPPLY. The water supply pipe connecting a fixture to a branch water supply pipe or directly to a main water supply pipe.'

Where are you comming up with these definitions?