Cheaper way to install services to fulfill outside safety switch

[curt swartz]

If the existing GEC is compliant why not just extend it a few feet to reach the new service disconnect location? I see no reason to run a new wire unless it needs to be a larger size.

 

[Dsg319]

230.85(3) appears to allow a circuit breaker for an emergency disconnect that is on the supply side of the service disconnect. I don't see why a meter main would not be compliant be with the language.

Slap the correct sticker and continue on with your 3wire service conductors. In my opinion just because it’s the first OCPD doesn’t mean it has to be the “service equipment”.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Jay,
In Massachusetts you can install USE cable from the meter emergency disconnect (which can be a standard meter with over current device disconnect and labeled Emergency Disconnect) and as long as it's"adjacent to the meter disconnect".
I hope this makes sense.

I meant SEU cable

 

[NTesla76]

If it's just a disconnect, and not a service disconnect, do you still need to bond the metal shell of the disconnect?

 

[ptonsparky]

If it's just a disconnect, and not a service disconnect, do you still need to bond the metal shell of the disconnect?

Yes.

 

[jaylectricity]

OK, you guys are really getting caught up on what qualifies as an emergency disconnect and how things are wired.

I have no questions about that. I only mentioned those things to explain WHY I was asking my question.

I am looking for a meter socket that has a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Has anybody seen something like that?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

OK, you guys are really getting caught up on what qualifies as an emergency disconnect and how things are wired.

I have no questions about that. I only mentioned those things to explain WHY I was asking my question.

I am looking for a meter socket that has a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Has anybody seen something like that?

Since the rule requires the emergency disconnect to be listed as "suitable for use as service equipment", I doubt you will find a non-fusible disconnect so marked. Same would apply to a molded case switch in an enclosure.

 

[ptonsparky]

OK, you guys are really getting caught up on what qualifies as an emergency disconnect and how things are wired.

I have no questions about that. I only mentioned those things to explain WHY I was asking my question.

I am looking for a meter socket that has a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Has anybody seen something like that?

Why non-overcurrent? Any meter main will work.

 

[wwhitney]

I am looking for a meter socket that has a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Has anybody seen something like that?

The point is that you don't need that. You can use one with an overcurrent device, slap the proper label on it, and treat that OCPD as if it were only a switch.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

OK, you guys are really getting caught up on what qualifies as an emergency disconnect and how things are wired.

I have no questions about that. I only mentioned those things to explain WHY I was asking my question.

I am looking for a meter socket that has a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Has anybody seen something like that?

Why don't you qualify your question.
Cheaper than what?
How much are you spending on what?
How much do you want to spend?

 

[jaylectricity]

I just want a meter socket with a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Anything other than a link to a product, a description of a product with a brand name, etc is irrelevant.

 

[electrofelon]

I just want a meter socket with a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Anything other than a link to a product, a description of a product with a brand name, etc is irrelevant.

I am not sure such a thing exists. If it did I assume it would be more expensive than a standard meter main because it is much less common.

 

[wwhitney]

Here's one in 60 amps:

Milbank - Meter Disconnect Combo

The 60 Amps meter disconnect combo saves installation time by putting the meter and disconnect both in one product.

milbankworks.com

My limited googling didn't turn up anything similar for 100A or 200A. For 100A, you could always do something like using a Square D C4L200S (200A bus) with a QO2000 (100A switch only) on the bus. Not sure if a similar option exists for 200A.

But I'm unclear why you insist on eliminating the outdoor OCPD? There's no upside.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Scottywatt]

I'm kind of wondering why all electricians worry about cost of products the disconnect is a code requirement. The code didn't say you had to pay for it. You simply pass it off to the customer. I see way too many electricians working for close to nothing and pricing services out like it was the 90's while plumber are making way more than we are and don't care about price. Im pretty sure we are worth it meaning more money


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[electrofelon]

I'm kind of wondering why all electricians worry about cost of products the disconnect is a code requirement. The code didn't say you had to pay for it. You simply pass it off to the customer. I see way too many electricians working for close to nothing and pricing services out like it was the 90's while plumber are making way more than we are and don't care about price. Im pretty sure we are worth it meaning more money


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Well of I hire a professional, I kinda assume him/her will have a good grasp of the codes, standards, and available products so that they can provide me with a better value if possible. How would you like it if you over heard a contractor you hired tell someone "it's not my money , I don't care how much that part costs" or " I could have saved the customer $100 by installing XYZ instead, but it's not money so I don't care"?

 

[Scottywatt]

Cheaper isn't always better and if it's added equipment it's added cost I'm pretty sure Yu our or any other electricians is going to verbally communicate what you said to anyone and if they do it shows the kind set of electricians and that's why plumbers have been getting more and more and we get less and less while helpers are running around making 15 an hour and ask to work on live products in order to save time and money. Itspurely a mind set that has to stop.


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[winnie]

If you specifically will only consider an external unfused disconnect device, I think this would qualify:

https://milbankworks.com/getmedia/fa411013-c606-4c3a-969a-e17e9da47be4/Flyer_Cold-Sequence-Knife-Switch.pdf

However I think you are making things unnecessarily difficult on yourself.

In post 7 you state "I'm looking for a solution where the meter has a safety switch for firefighters, but it's not a main breaker." You want something outside that acts as a switch, and something inside that is considered the main breaker, in the enclosure where you will land your GECs with only a 3 wire feed from outside to inside.

The reason that we are getting caught up on the nuance of 'what is a service disconnect' and 'what is an emergency disconnect' is that if you have an appropriate piece of equipment with an appropriate label, even if it has OCPD it is still not the main breaker. In other words with the appropriate label that outside OCPD magically becomes just a switch.

Outside OCPD might be undesirable from a coordination point of view (did my main trip or did my emergency disconnect trip), and presumably an outdoor OCPD would be less reliable than a pure switch, so I can see why you would want to avoid that. But if your goal is simple the least expensive code compliant installation I think a 'emergency disconnect only' meter main is the way to go.

-Jon

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If you specifically will only consider an external unfused disconnect device, I think this would qualify:

https://milbankworks.com/getmedia/fa411013-c606-4c3a-969a-e17e9da47be4/Flyer_Cold-Sequence-Knife-Switch.pdf

However I think you are making things unnecessarily difficult on yourself.

In post 7 you state "I'm looking for a solution where the meter has a safety switch for firefighters, but it's not a main breaker." You want something outside that acts as a switch, and something inside that is considered the main breaker, in the enclosure where you will land your GECs with only a 3 wire feed from outside to inside.

The reason that we are getting caught up on the nuance of 'what is a service disconnect' and 'what is an emergency disconnect' is that if you have an appropriate piece of equipment with an appropriate label, even if it has OCPD it is still not the main breaker. In other words with the appropriate label that outside OCPD magically becomes just a switch.

Outside OCPD might be undesirable from a coordination point of view (did my main trip or did my emergency disconnect trip), and presumably an outdoor OCPD would be less reliable than a pure switch, so I can see why you would want to avoid that. But if your goal is simple the least expensive code compliant installation I think a 'emergency disconnect only' meter main is the way to go.

-Jon

While that would work for compliance with 230.85, it may not work for your utility. Ours will not permit a disconnect on the line side of their cash register, unless they specifically require a cold sequence meter disconnect. The only cold sequence meter disconnects required around here are for self contained 480 volt meters, and those are not commonly used for one and two family dwelling units.

 

[jaylectricity]

Here's one in 60 amps:

Milbank - Meter Disconnect Combo

The 60 Amps meter disconnect combo saves installation time by putting the meter and disconnect both in one product.

milbankworks.com

My limited googling didn't turn up anything similar for 100A or 200A. For 100A, you could always do something like using a Square D C4L200S (200A bus) with a QO2000 (100A switch only) on the bus. Not sure if a similar option exists for 200A.

But I'm unclear why you insist on eliminating the outdoor OCPD? There's no upside.

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks for looking.

I'm more looking at ease of installation which helps reduce time and cost of the project. If I am just replacing a meter socket that is rusting out, I have to now include the disconnect. If I have to install a meter/main now I also have to replace the feeder to the panel to add an equipment ground and also run a new GEC from the grounding electrode to the meter/main outside.

20 years in the business and I still find products that I never knew existed so I was wondering if there was something like what I was asking about.

As far as the cost to the customer, if something costs too much and they don't NEED it, they might not do it. So you lose that job. I am in a place where there are very few jobs where I give a bid, quote, estimate or anything. I don't advertise, my van doesn't have my name or phone number on it. People that hire me know other people that I've worked for and the trust is there. And I'm going to uphold my end of the trust bargain because I don't want to make the people I worked for look bad.

They call me. I show up. I do the work. I tell them how much (or give them an invoice electronically) and they pay me and everybody is happy.

 

[NTesla76]

Thanks for looking.

I'm more looking at ease of installation which helps reduce time and cost of the project. If I am just replacing a meter socket that is rusting out, I have to now include the disconnect. If it's a meter/main now I also have to replace the feeder to the panel to add an equipment ground and also run a new GEC from the grounding electrode outside.

20 years in the business and I still find products that I never knew existed so I was wondering if there was something like what I was asking about.

As far as the cost to the customer, if something costs too much and they don't NEED it, they might not do it. So you lose that job. I am in a place where there are very few jobs where I give a bid, quote, estimate or anything. I don't advertise, my van doesn't have my name or phone number on it. People that hire me know other people that I've worked for and the trust is there. And I'm going to uphold my end of the trust bargain because I don't want to make the people I worked for look bad.

They call me. I show up. I do the work. I tell them how much (or give them an invoice electronically) and they pay me and everybody is happy.

It may be different if your area, but a meter socket isn't considered service equipment per the NEC. If it's strictly a meter socket change out, you shouldn't have to install the emergency disconnect.

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