Cheaper way to install services to fulfill outside safety switch

[jaylectricity]

It may be different if your area, but a meter socket isn't considered service equipment per the NEC. If it's strictly a meter socket change out, you shouldn't have to install the emergency disconnect.

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Maybe not, but then maybe the service riser is also in bad shape. There's an argument as to whether you're replacing the service or not.

I've won a few arguments with inspectors that I had to remind them about on later inspections, but sometimes it's not worth it.

 

[ptonsparky]

Thanks for looking.

I'm more looking at ease of installation which helps reduce time and cost of the project. If I am just replacing a meter socket that is rusting out, I have to now include the disconnect. If I have to install a meter/main now I also have to replace the feeder to the panel to add an equipment ground and also run a new GEC from the grounding electrode to the meter/main outside.

20 years in the business and I still find products that I never knew existed so I was wondering if there was something like what I was asking about.

As far as the cost to the customer, if something costs too much and they don't NEED it, they might not do it. So you lose that job. I am in a place where there are very few jobs where I give a bid, quote, estimate or anything. I don't advertise, my van doesn't have my name or phone number on it. People that hire me know other people that I've worked for and the trust is there. And I'm going to uphold my end of the trust bargain because I don't want to make the people I worked for look bad.

They call me. I show up. I do the work. I tell them how much (or give them an invoice electronically) and they pay me and everybody is happy.

Is it a local requirement that you can not use the labeling exception?

 

[wwhitney]

If I have to install a meter/main now I also have to replace the feeder to the panel to add an equipment ground and also run a new GEC from the grounding electrode to the meter/main outside.

The point of the earlier discussion about 230.85(3) was that you don't need to do any of those things, you just need to label the meter/main as specified, and you get to ignore the OCPD in the meter/main, keeping everything the same.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

It may be different if your area, but a meter socket isn't considered service equipment per the NEC. If it's strictly a meter socket change out, you shouldn't have to install the emergency disconnect.

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Same in Massachusetts.
Meter swap out only = you don't have to upgrade to meter disco.
and this applies as well.
Main panel swap out only = you don't have to upgrade to meter disco.

 

[Scottywatt]

Thanks for looking.

I'm more looking at ease of installation which helps reduce time and cost of the project. If I am just replacing a meter socket that is rusting out, I have to now include the disconnect. If I have to install a meter/main now I also have to replace the feeder to the panel to add an equipment ground and also run a new GEC from the grounding electrode to the meter/main outside.

20 years in the business and I still find products that I never knew existed so I was wondering if there was something like what I was asking about.

As far as the cost to the customer, if something costs too much and they don't NEED it, they might not do it. So you lose that job. I am in a place where there are very few jobs where I give a bid, quote, estimate or anything. I don't advertise, my van doesn't have my name or phone number on it. People that hire me know other people that I've worked for and the trust is there. And I'm going to uphold my end of the trust bargain because I don't want to make the people I worked for look bad.

They call me. I show up. I do the work. I tell them how much (or give them an invoice electronically) and they pay me and everybody is happy.

That's great that you are trying to save money and time. But you are offering more than just the electrical work. You are offering to the customer new inovative ways to improve safety for there home and community. That was the whole point of the code rule so if a ladder truck shows up and there is a problem they can shut down the house,without putting themselves in danger. It's also marked Emergency Disconnect so the customer is aware that they can use it as well. At the end of the day it's a Disconnect that's all. The product should be added to the cost. What it doesnt mean is because of this cost you now pay your helper less or pay It out of your pocket, or that you don't follow the state guidlines as far as lettering on the truck with licence number. You are offering a professional service and you are highly trained more of this needs to be communicated to the cuatomers. They want value value doesnt always mean cheaper.


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[winnie]

The basic point is not to avoid the outside disconnect, but rather to have the outside disconnect without the additional costs of moving the GEC and adding a 4 wire feeder.

jaylectricity is specifically looking for an outside disconnect without OCPD to avoid it becoming the service disconnect, not looking to get out of the outside disconnect. The rest of us are saying that with the appropriate label an outside OCPD also qualifies as 'not the service disconnect' again with the same goal if an outside disconnect that doesn't require moving the GEC or a 4 wire feeded.

Jon

 

[Phillip Land]

OK, you guys are really getting caught up on what qualifies as an emergency disconnect and how things are wired.

I have no questions about that. I only mentioned those things to explain WHY I was asking my question.

I am looking for a meter socket that has a safety switch or other non-overcurrent device that will serve as the emergency disconnect. Has anybody seen something like that?

As far as I know the switch by the meter is your first means of disconnect. Because it is, whether or not it is a breaker or fused disconnect doesn't matter - all bonding and grounding is done here.

 

[Phillip Land]

Excuse me if I misunderstood, but is the electrical panel immediately on the wall behind the meter? If it is, then yes, if they make a combo meter with a non-fused safety switch, then you could do this.
If the panel is anywhere else and the wiring is "inside the building" then it has to be a feeder (4-wire) and the bonding/grounding goes in the outside disconnect.

 

[wwhitney]

As far as I know the switch by the meter is your first means of disconnect. Because it is, whether or not it is a breaker or fused disconnect doesn't matter - all bonding and grounding is done here.

True for the 2017 NEC and earlier, not true for the 2020 NEC section 230.85. The 2020 NEC lets you put labels on the disconnect that change what rules apply, to facilitate the new requirement for outdoor emergency disconnects for one and two family dwellings.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[shortcircuit2]

True for the 2017 NEC and earlier, not true for the 2020 NEC section 230.85. The 2020 NEC lets you put labels on the disconnect that change what rules apply, to facilitate the new requirement for outdoor emergency disconnects for one and two family dwellings.

Cheers, Wayne

Technically you can NOT re-label equipment that is listed and labeled "Suitable ONLY for Use as Service Equipment" ...
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
per 230.85(3) as this would violate the listing. You would be modifying a listed piece of equipment after it has left the factory.

There is a change in the 2023 NEC First Draft of 230.85 that will specifically not allow this.

 

[LarryFine]

What is physically different (not just labeling) among disconnects suitable only for use as service equipment vs those suitable for use as service equipment vs those suitable for use as emergency disconnects vs those suitable for use as all three?

 

[shortcircuit2]

Suitable ONLY will have the neutral bussing bolted/secured to the enclosure...

SUSE will float the Neutral...

 

[ptonsparky]

Technically you can NOT re-label equipment that is listed and labeled "Suitable ONLY for Use as Service Equipment" ...
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
per 230.85(3) as this would violate the listing. You would be modifying a listed piece of equipment after it has left the factory.

There is a change in the 2023 NEC First Draft of 230.85 that will specifically not allow this.

You are getting hung up on "label". I used the wrong term back in post #6. "Marked" is the proper term.

 

[wwhitney]

Technically you can NOT re-label equipment that is listed and labeled "Suitable ONLY for Use as Service Equipment" ...
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
per 230.85(3) as this would violate the listing. You would be modifying a listed piece of equipment after it has left the factory.

There is a change in the 2023 NEC First Draft of 230.85 that will specifically not allow this.

That makes zero sense technically or regulatorily. The "suitable only for use as service equipment" just means the case is permanently bonded to the neutral lug. The "Emergency Disconnect - Not Service Equipment" is just a sleight of hand that we are ignoring the OCPD inside. Any such equipment needs to be bonded to the neutral, so there's no problem using equipment that is "suitable only for use as service equipment" for a "Emergency Disconnect - Not Service Equipment."

Those are two different meanings of "service equipment" and are not in any conflict and should not be conflated.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Learning Always]

I can see where Jay is coming from. Locally we are not allowed to relabel the emergency disconnect and run only 3 wires inside. Makes it a hassle having to do a panel change with existing 3 wire ranges/dryers in a finished building that can no longer terminate in a sub panel. I recently looked at a large project that would now have to have all 3 wire circuits extended outside. Job would be easier if one was allowed to relabel the emergency disconnect to "not sevice disconnect"

 

[ptonsparky]

I can see where Jay is coming from. Locally we are not allowed to relabel the emergency disconnect and run only 3 wires inside. Makes it a hassle having to do a panel change with existing 3 wire ranges/dryers in a finished building that can no longer terminate in a sub panel. I recently looked at a large project that would now have to have all 3 wire circuits extended outside. Job would be easier if one was allowed to relabel the emergency disconnect to "not sevice disconnect"

Mark it. Don’t label it.

 

[wwhitney]

Locally we are not allowed to relabel the emergency disconnect and run only 3 wires inside.

Looks like MN adopted the 2020 NEC on November 17, 2020. Did your jurisdiction formally amend 230.85?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[electrofelon]

Technically you can NOT re-label equipment that is listed and labeled "Suitable ONLY for Use as Service Equipment" ...
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
per 230.85(3) as this would violate the listing. You would be modifying a listed piece of equipment after it has left the factory.

There is a change in the 2023 NEC First Draft of 230.85 that will specifically not allow this.

That makes zero sense technically or regulatorily. The "suitable only for use as service equipment" just means the case is permanently bonded to the neutral lug. The "Emergency Disconnect - Not Service Equipment" is just a sleight of hand that we are ignoring the OCPD inside. Any such equipment needs to be bonded to the neutral, so there's no problem using equipment that is "suitable only for use as service equipment" for a "Emergency Disconnect - Not Service Equipment."

Those are two different meanings of "service equipment" and are not in any conflict and should not be conflated.

Cheers, Wayne

Overall I agree withe Wayne, but I do see a bit of a conflict here. My issue is the "not service equipment" wording. I would argue the emergency disconnect IS service equipment, but what they intend to say or mean is "NOT A SERVICE DISCONNECT". There is some ambiguity around what constitutes "service equipment". There is an argument that disconnecting means and overcurrent protection are the only components that can be "service equipment" due to these being the only thing mentioned in 230 parts VI and VII. However the definition seems to be more expansive, and IMO the emergency disconnect fits the definition.

 

[shortcircuit2]

You are getting hung up on "label". I used the wrong term back in post #6. "Marked" is the proper term.

Yes marked with a label.

 

[shortcircuit2]

Overall I agree withe Wayne, but I do see a bit of a conflict here. My issue is the "not service equipment" wording. I would argue the emergency disconnect IS service equipment, but what they intend to say or mean is "NOT A SERVICE DISCONNECT". There is some ambiguity around what constitutes "service equipment". There is an argument that disconnecting means and overcurrent protection are the only components that can be "service equipment" due to these being the only thing mentioned in 230 parts VI and VII. However the definition seems to be more expansive, and IMO the emergency disconnect fits the definition.

The issue is the equipment is listed as suitable ONLY for use as service equipment. So it must be wired as such. With feeder arrangement wiring downstream from the service equipment. 4-wire...not 3-wire...grounds and neutrals separated. Now add an SPD per 230.67(D) and upgrade old 3-wire range and dryer branch circuits to 4-wire branch circuits. System is now safer. GFCI on new dryer branch circuit and maybe the range too if the receptacle is within 6-feet of the sink. SPD may protect all the life safety devices...smokes...GFCI devices...etc

Mark it with a label NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT and none of the above applies.

Emergency Disconnect is not defined in the NEC. Service Equipment is.