Cheaper way to install services to fulfill outside safety switch

[shortcircuit2]

Looks like MN adopted the 2020 NEC on November 17, 2020. Did your jurisdiction formally amend 230.85?

Cheers, Wayne

Any amendment to 230.85 should delete 230.85(2) and (3) . Also allow remote (shunt trip) disconnect of the service equipment in areas with underground service entrance.

 

[wwhitney]

The issue is the equipment is listed as suitable ONLY for use as service equipment.

Embrace the duality. The NEC and UL definitions of service equipment have diverged with the adoption of 230.85. So a 230.85(3) emergency disconnect is not service equipment for the purposes of the NEC, but it's still service equipment as far as UL labeling is concerned. There is zero problem with using a "suitable only for use as service equipment" meter main as the emergency disconnect, other than some semantic conflict.

Any amendment to 230.85 should delete 230.85(2) and (3) . Also allow remote (shunt trip) disconnect of the service equipment in areas with underground service entrance.

Sounds like a step backwards to me. My understanding is that 230.85(2) and (3) are there precisely to reduce the expense and difficulty of complying with the useful safety improvement that 230.85 provides. So the intent is that all the knock-on effects of moving the service equipment outside should not be required to comply with 230.85.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[electrofelon]

The issue is the equipment is listed as suitable ONLY for use as service equipment. So it must be wired as such. With feeder arrangement wiring downstream from the service equipment. 4-wire...not 3-wire...grounds and neutrals separated. Now add an SPD per 230.67(D) and upgrade old 3-wire range and dryer branch circuits to 4-wire branch circuits. System is now safer. GFCI on new dryer branch circuit and maybe the range too if the receptacle is within 6-feet of the sink. SPD may protect all the life safety devices...smokes...GFCI devices...etc

Mark it with a label NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT and none of the above applies.

Emergency Disconnect is not defined in the NEC. Service Equipment is.

While certainly the NEC has botched it YET AGAIN with confusing language, silly and conflicting requirements, and undefined terms (this organization seems to just get worse and worse), I do not believe their intent was to not allow suitable for use only a service equipment from being an emergency disconnect.

 

[ptonsparky]

We‘ve had those disconnects in rural areas for decades. They just weren’t marked as such. The SED ignored them. Electricians and owners liked them because we could disconnect from the POCO. Three wire everywhere until the SE at building. Now we can put them on the outside of that home. Get over it. It’s no different than having metallic raceway with an extra box.

 

[retirede]

We‘ve had those disconnects in rural areas for decades. They just weren’t marked as such. The SED ignored them. Electricians and owners liked them because we could disconnect from the POCO. Three wire everywhere until the SE at building.

Yep

I can guarantee you every home in our county where the meter is not on the wall of house is wired this way.

They don’t bother with a meter/main when it’s mounted on the wall, only when the meter is away from the house (pole or pedestal).

 

[jaggedben]

What a just generally awful idea 230.85 was.

 

[Learning Always]

Looks like MN adopted the 2020 NEC on November 17, 2020. Did your jurisdiction formally amend 230.85?

Cheers, Wayne

I have not seen an ammendment in writing but all the inspectors I have dealt with in the area are on the same page and are clear of thier expectations. Perhaps other parts of the state have different experiences.

 

[electrofelon]

Yep

I can guarantee you every home in our county where the meter is not on the wall of house is wired this way.

They don’t bother with a meter/main when it’s mounted on the wall, only when the meter is away from the house (pole or pedestal).

I don't follow your post here, but I do meters-only on pedestals all the time.

 

[ptonsparky]

What a just generally awful idea 230.85 was.

Sort of depends on if you need to disconnect power to the house NOW vs whenever the POCO decides to show up.

 

[electrofelon]

We‘ve had those disconnects in rural areas for decades. They just weren’t marked as such. The SED ignored them. Electricians and owners liked them because we could disconnect from the POCO. Three wire everywhere until the SE at building. Now we can put them on the outside of that home. Get over it. It’s no different than having metallic raceway with an extra box.

It's a non insignificant extra cost, and visually quite a bit more intrusive. I don't see what the problem was with pulling a meter.

 

[ptonsparky]

It's a non insignificant extra cost, and visually quite a bit more intrusive. I don't see what the problem was with pulling a meter.

Pulling a meter is not allowed for a good share of us, let alone the home owner.

I agree, it is not an insignificant cost. Freaking expensive if you have a 400 amp 3R disconnect to add.

 

[electrofelon]

Pulling a meter is not allowed for a good share of us, let alone the home owner.

I thought the purpose of the emergency disconnect is for fire fighters. When there's a fire , I think pretty much all rules go out the window. Try telling the FD when they come to your house that is on fire that they need to come back with a search warrant to enter

 

[ptonsparky]

It doesn't say they are for fire fighters only.
Not that we are getting sidetracked...

 

[electrofelon]

It doesn't say they are for fire fighters only.
Not that we are getting sidetracked...

Okay fair enough, but my understanding is that was the primary reasoning. I guess I will have to look at the proposals and read about all the cases of people needing an emergency disconnect.

 

[Fred B]

Not all fire departments have someone qualified to remove a meter or to cut service. I was witness to one that house became almost total loss because FD didn't have someone and had to wait for POCO to disconnect. POCO was 20 minutes out. I became aware of it because was waiting for them to arrive to hook up a new service when saw FD fly by. About 20 min later the utility trucks drove by with the xfmr on back and didn't stop, thought maybe the didn't have the address right. When they did finally get to me a little more than an hour after appointment time to do the install, they told me what happened.

 

[electrofelon]

Not all fire departments have someone qualified to remove a meter or to cut service. I was witness to one that house became almost total loss because FD didn't have someone and had to wait for POCO to disconnect. POCO was 20 minutes out. I became aware of it because was waiting for them to arrive to hook up a new service when saw FD fly by. About 20 min later the utility trucks drove by with the xfmr on back and didn't stop, thought maybe the didn't have the address right. When they did finally get to me a little more than an hour after appointment time to do the install, they told me what happened.

What is so hard about pulling a meter? do you really think the power company people who set meters are highly experienced and highly trained? What is there to know? Seems like 15 minutes of training is all that is required. They already have face Shields and gloves. These guys go into burning buildings but they can't pull a meter?? why is everyone overthinking this so much?

 

[retirede]

I don't follow your post here, but I do meters-only on pedestals all the time.

The rural Coop here provides a meter main always when the meter is not mounted on the house. At my farm, they installed a pedestal meter/main one foot from the building served.

I don’t think it’s up to the electrician…..

 

[electrofelon]

The rural Coop here provides a meter main always when the meter is not mounted on the house. At my farm, they installed a pedestal meter/main one foot from the building served.

I don’t think it’s up to the electrician…..

Okay, things are quite a bit different there. Around here we almost always run the line side of the meter, and select and provide the metering equipment. I often run hundreds of feet from a meter only on a pedestal to a structure with service conductors.

 

[ptonsparky]

Depends on the local POCO. Some install meter/transfer switches. Some the meter loop, then the EC does his thing, others we do all.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Technically you can NOT re-label equipment that is listed and labeled "Suitable ONLY for Use as Service Equipment" ...
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
per 230.85(3) as this would violate the listing. You would be modifying a listed piece of equipment after it has left the factory.

There is a change in the 2023 NEC First Draft of 230.85 that will specifically not allow this.

I really think the code is wrong on this issue and there is no real world issue in using equipment marked as suitable only for use as service equipment as the emergency disconnect and marking it not service equipment. When used in this manner you are not making any physical modification to the equipment.

The only difference is that where the equipment is suitable only for use as service equipment the neutral is factory bonded to the enclosure. If you are using it and marking it not service equipment, you will be bonding the neutral to the enclosure anyway.

It is just nonsense to make this code change. There are ZERO real world issues with this use.