child proof recepts being required!?

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Give the large number manufacturer driven profit making proposals that where accepted for the 2008 code, I think that it is time that all the AHJs get together and refuse to adopt the 2008 code.
Don
 
Michael
Hello and welcome to the forum. It is great that a chair person from the NFPA CMPs is here to see/listen to what we are discussing.
It doesn't hurt that you and I agree on this topic.

I hope you spend some more time here and pitch in when you can.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Give the large number manufacturer driven profit making proposals that where accepted for the 2008 code, I think that it is time that all the AHJs get together and refuse to adopt the 2008 code.
Don
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I agree. At the very least, I hope that many states will amend these requirements right out of the codes they adopt.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Give the large number manufacturer driven profit making proposals that where accepted for the 2008 code, I think that it is time that all the AHJs get together and refuse to adopt the 2008 code.
Don
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Altho I'm not ready to advocate a full scale rebellion against NFPA committees, I do think there is an issue of concentrated power that should be addressed. . Using our governmental structure as an example, we have 3 separate branches of government for a reason, checks and balances. . We have 2 separate congressional bodies that both must agree before a law can be passed, checks and balances. . We have an appeals process in our court system, checks and balances. . We have elections to keep politicians in check. . Democrats tell us every transgression of the Republicans. . Republicans tell us every transgression of the Democrats. . The media digs up any dirt they can find on anybody for a blimp on their ratings.

Is there a check and balance on the NFPA. . I would say that the biggest check is the individual states authority to adopt the NEC or not adopt. . They also can modify as they choose. . But if this option isn't realistically being considered by more that a couple states, it doesn't have any "teeth" to provide a check on the NFPA.

Does the NFPA need to be restrained ? . Whether or not they overstep isn't the real issue. . The real issue is whether or not there is a check in place that can handle the theoretic overstep.

David
 
ok, here is a "checks and balances" proposal

"For every proposed code change that involves significant added cost and/or effort, the entire CMP must personally implement the change in their own homes/businesses and reconvene after one whole code cycle. If any are found to have not implemented, or to have altered or bypassed the new and improved features, the proposal shall be deemed to have failed due to impracticality"

:)

might also work for congress...
 
These manufactures sit on the boards and dream up ways to increase their companies profits and sales.tamper proof child outlets are another way of doing it. most jurisdictions should not even enforce it if it becomes code. a simple pack of plastic child safety caps in every outlet would do the job much better anyway.
 
I haven't concluded yet whether requiring tamper-proof is a good or a bad change. . My concern is with the process itself. . I question the approach of the code making panel. . As Michael Ber stated

Michael Ber said:
As a member of Code Panel 18 I was against this proposal. For the ROC, my negative vote comment is below:

Comment 18-27 Log #266 Section 406.11 Proposal 18-40
Negative Vote with Comment:
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Michael Ber said:
Whenever we are presented with any subject that concerns “the children” the ability to keep eyes dry and analyze data rationally immediately leaves the room. This inability to make intelligent decisions has been enhanced in this instance with dubious data presented with introductory terms like, “probability sample” and “estimated”. As soon as we are presented with this type of undata, without any technical substantiation, it is time for all good men and women to look for underlying reasons. Compound this with photos presented to the panel of severely burned children that have no connection to the discussion. A child that chews on an extension cord has no relationship to an unsupervised kid with a hair pin in his hand that is allowed to be in a location with receptacles.
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If this is how the panels run their discussions then there is a big problem. . There's no way to know whether or not the conclusions they've come to are correct because there's no way for the code panel members to know whether or not their own conclusions are correct. . It's critically important that Michael make the general public aware of how things are proceeding so that pressure can be brought to clean up the process and stick to the facts. . The people on these panels were chosen because of their training and background in the electrical industry not because they care more about children than the rest of us care about children.

This highlights the need for a realistic check system.

I ask everybody here, do you know if your state actually looks at the latest NEC and consciously looks for signs that something in the NEC doesn't pass the "sniff test" ?

I know one state has exempted the bedroom AFCI requirement. . I'm not going to comment on whether or not that was the right move, but I applaud the fact that they're willing to act on what they see as overstepping.

David
 
gfci vs outlet plugs

gfci vs outlet plugs

Given that the plastic inserts are easily removed by children and present a choking hazard, what is the point?

Would protecting all outlets in reach of children with GFCI protection be enough of a safety precaution that these other measures are not needed?
 
dnem said:
I ask everybody here, do you know if your state actually looks at the latest NEC and consciously looks for signs that something in the NEC doesn't pass the "sniff test" ?

David
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Yes Washington State does a great job of fixing the NEC mistakes. Examples
1. Held off 2 years to adopt NM cables in buildings exceeding 3 floors
2. Added exemption to allow TVSS where there are already 6 disconnects, was rejected in 2002 cycle, when added in 05 was removed from state rules
3. Clarify what rooms off of a bedroom require AFCI
4. Clarify that all wet locations require GFCI protection
 
So what's the "talk" in Washington State ?
Will they support a NFPA requirement for whole house AFCI ?
Will they support a NFPA requirement for whole house tamper proof plugs ?

David
 
As Tim Allen says, "anyone who says a penny doesn't go far, obviously didn't see my nephew go scooting across the floor after he stuck one in an electrical outlet."
 
Tamperproof receptacles shall be required in dwelling units by the 2008 NEC. :mad:

Panel Statement:​
​
​
The Panel has reviewed all comments and concludes that
requiring tamper-resistant receptacles will effectively reduce child burns and
electrocution. Specific responses to comments are as follows.
(1) Test data presented to the panel indicates insertion and withdrawal forces
will not be a problem for the aged or physically challenged. Insertion forces
necessary to open the shutter at 20-25% those necessary to insert a plug into a
receptacle and once the shutters are cleared no additional force is required to
engage the plug into the receptacle contacts.
(2) The safety justification is compelling. CPSC and CHIRPP use highly
sophisticated statistical models that allow accurate estimates of the total
universe. The fact that CPSC data was remarkable similar to a totally different
study in Canada corroborates both sets of data.
(3) The plastic safety caps mentioned in some substantiations have been
available during the entire time of the hospital emergency room data collection
in both the US and Canada and did not mitigate thousands of burn incidents
each year.
(4) The UL/ANSI standard has requirements and tests that attempt to defeat
the shutters. UL fully tests with a probe to try to manipulate opening. Similar
products have been in use for over 20 years in pediatric areas with no evidence
of them being defeated. Shutters are commonly used in European electrical
receptacle devices.
(5) The NEMA cost estimate was based on the cost adder for residential type
tamper resistant receptacles produced in the volumes this requirement would
result in. Cost estimates based on hospital
or specification grade products are based on today?s market size and do not
provide a valid comparison.
(6) The panel considered limiting the requirements. The hazard exists on vanity
and kitchen countertops on which children are placed and which have easily
accessed receptacles. Given the very few receptacles that would, under all
circumstances, not be accessible and the modest cost of the receptacles, it was
decided that a clear, unambiguous requirement would be easier to follow and
enforce.
(7) Neither AFCI nor GFCI eliminate the faults that result in the child burns.
Neither product is intended to protect against the type of burn incidents on
which this requirement is based.​
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​

 
So when I can't use or open it because its child-proof I get my kid to open it.

So when I can't use or open it because its child-proof I get my kid to open it.

Nothing is child-proof. Is that part of a childs job is to figure out how to by pass it. I think it took a week for my kids to figure out how to by pass the cabinet locks.

And how did we all survive? No supervision as kids-be home by dinner. Hopped freight trains all the time for fun. I do remember my buddy sticking a knife in the light socket and get dropped to the ground.

We used to stick foil wrappers in the outlets as school which tripped the breaker. Maintenace staff never did figure out why. HEE HEE HAA Haa.
 
I agree, are we suppose to install fences around are houses to keep are kids safe? its called being a parent... try watching your child... speaking of which, I have to go...:grin:
 
OK devils advocate, do you think, electricians thought, OH MY GAWD another intrusion into my job, now they want me to apply temperature adjustment factors on conductors or WHAT TO HECK, GFP on 480/277 1000 amp services what next.

I do remember GFCI's becoming code and my boss at the time telling us how we'd all get rich responding to GFCI nuisance trips. I am still waiting on that check.

Then in a few years (right or wrong) it is the accepted practice.
 
I dont see how thoose are child resistent?
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Mark if you look real close at the slots you will see that there are "shutters" installed within the slots that won't open unless pressure is applied to both slots at the same time.

Chris

(editted to add that this is an evil post! My 666'th:D)
 
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